First of all, I think this is a fantastic article. It’s very clear and brings some new, interesting points.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but here’s my crude summary of what you’re essentially trying to get at:
Diagnosis of a problem: The conventional definition of veganism—i.e. “Avoid all first-order consumption!”—overlooks other animal-harms caused by adherents of that definition, as well as harms prevented by actions that do not conform to that definition. And as I understand it, the reason why this is a problem (again, correct me if I’m wrong) is that, 1) it “limits intellectual freedom,” and 2) pushing too hard on this definition might lead to a situation where the total man-made suffering of animals might be higher than otherwise could’ve been under a more flexible definition.
One possible solution to the problem: We shouldn’t be so inflexible by demanding conformity to the conventional definition. We should allow some expansion/dilution of the definition, so that other ways/acts to reduce human-caused animal suffering (ex. reducing vehicle usage) can be welcomed/encouraged, even if the person performing such an act eats meat. This may lead to a state where the total man-made suffering of animals is lower than would’ve been under the world that demands conformity to the conventional definition.
If this is correct, then here’s my take: if my goal were to minimize the total man-made suffering of animals, then I would demand conformity to the conventional definition, because I think—as you said—it brings “solidarity,” “uniformity,” and “a clear understanding of what is required.” Without such a vigorous clarity, I don’t think veganism could have grown to the current level.
If vegans were to start accepting meat-eaters so long as they perform other animal-benefiting acts, I have a feeling that the entire movement would eventually lose its identity, as second-order harms are not only harder to track but also do not motivate/confront people as much as first-order harms. Your solution would work if people actually started reducing vehicle usage for animals, etc. but my take is that such a thing wouldn’t happen, precisely because of the diluted vigor of the veganism movement.
Thanks for the response. You’ve summarised the post very well except that, more than limiting intellectual freedom, the convention definition leads to excessive focus on purity at the first-order at the expense of broad utilitarian considerations (think of all the vitriol that vegans throw at deserters which is so irrational).
As for your view that without the solidarity, the veganism would not be what it is today, I am not entirely convinced. To be clear, the community of interest in this discussion is the animal advocacy one and not vegans per se (notwithstanding the fact the two of them intersect almost completely). Here are some counter-arguments to consider:
Animal advocates are likely to be first-order vegans or very close to it anyway. If one voluntarily chooses to make lifestyle changes based on concern for animal suffering, then one is likely to go to significant lengths to avoid animal products. Not everyone may go the same distance but that’s okay (or so I think).
Peter Singer the philosopher who arguably has the greatest claim to influencing people on animal rights and liberation is not a strict vegan and in fact describes himself as being “flexible”. Yuval Harari is another person who is passionate about ending industrial agriculture of animals but describes himself as “vegan-ish”. If important thinkers who undoubtedly have a great influence on people refrain from using the word “vegan”, then why do you think that as a community animal advocates should not shed that label or loosen its definition?
Conversely, taking vegan purity to the extreme, we have people like Gary Francione who are so opposed to any welfarist progress (regardless of its consequential value) and who insist that we should avoid meat alternatives because that normalizes the idea of consuming animals. I hope we can agree that that position is counterproductive.
I may be extrapolating from personal experience but first-order veganism being as clearly defined (very arbitrary but very well-defined) gives adherents the sense that they are doing enough already and dilutes thinking along utilitarian lines (what if a vegan purist compares herself to someone who is 95% plant-based but convinces 3 people every month to reduce animal products by 50%).
While on the one hand, vegans could be admired for being very committed to the cause, and inspire others to do the same, they may seen too distant which could work against people making changes that they otherwise may have been open to. Again, this is speculative and in general I think it cuts both ways.
First of all, I think this is a fantastic article. It’s very clear and brings some new, interesting points.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but here’s my crude summary of what you’re essentially trying to get at:
Diagnosis of a problem: The conventional definition of veganism—i.e. “Avoid all first-order consumption!”—overlooks other animal-harms caused by adherents of that definition, as well as harms prevented by actions that do not conform to that definition. And as I understand it, the reason why this is a problem (again, correct me if I’m wrong) is that, 1) it “limits intellectual freedom,” and 2) pushing too hard on this definition might lead to a situation where the total man-made suffering of animals might be higher than otherwise could’ve been under a more flexible definition.
One possible solution to the problem: We shouldn’t be so inflexible by demanding conformity to the conventional definition. We should allow some expansion/dilution of the definition, so that other ways/acts to reduce human-caused animal suffering (ex. reducing vehicle usage) can be welcomed/encouraged, even if the person performing such an act eats meat. This may lead to a state where the total man-made suffering of animals is lower than would’ve been under the world that demands conformity to the conventional definition.
If this is correct, then here’s my take: if my goal were to minimize the total man-made suffering of animals, then I would demand conformity to the conventional definition, because I think—as you said—it brings “solidarity,” “uniformity,” and “a clear understanding of what is required.” Without such a vigorous clarity, I don’t think veganism could have grown to the current level.
If vegans were to start accepting meat-eaters so long as they perform other animal-benefiting acts, I have a feeling that the entire movement would eventually lose its identity, as second-order harms are not only harder to track but also do not motivate/confront people as much as first-order harms. Your solution would work if people actually started reducing vehicle usage for animals, etc. but my take is that such a thing wouldn’t happen, precisely because of the diluted vigor of the veganism movement.
Thanks for the response. You’ve summarised the post very well except that, more than limiting intellectual freedom, the convention definition leads to excessive focus on purity at the first-order at the expense of broad utilitarian considerations (think of all the vitriol that vegans throw at deserters which is so irrational).
As for your view that without the solidarity, the veganism would not be what it is today, I am not entirely convinced. To be clear, the community of interest in this discussion is the animal advocacy one and not vegans per se (notwithstanding the fact the two of them intersect almost completely). Here are some counter-arguments to consider:
Animal advocates are likely to be first-order vegans or very close to it anyway. If one voluntarily chooses to make lifestyle changes based on concern for animal suffering, then one is likely to go to significant lengths to avoid animal products. Not everyone may go the same distance but that’s okay (or so I think).
Peter Singer the philosopher who arguably has the greatest claim to influencing people on animal rights and liberation is not a strict vegan and in fact describes himself as being “flexible”. Yuval Harari is another person who is passionate about ending industrial agriculture of animals but describes himself as “vegan-ish”. If important thinkers who undoubtedly have a great influence on people refrain from using the word “vegan”, then why do you think that as a community animal advocates should not shed that label or loosen its definition?
Conversely, taking vegan purity to the extreme, we have people like Gary Francione who are so opposed to any welfarist progress (regardless of its consequential value) and who insist that we should avoid meat alternatives because that normalizes the idea of consuming animals. I hope we can agree that that position is counterproductive.
I may be extrapolating from personal experience but first-order veganism being as clearly defined (very arbitrary but very well-defined) gives adherents the sense that they are doing enough already and dilutes thinking along utilitarian lines (what if a vegan purist compares herself to someone who is 95% plant-based but convinces 3 people every month to reduce animal products by 50%).
While on the one hand, vegans could be admired for being very committed to the cause, and inspire others to do the same, they may seen too distant which could work against people making changes that they otherwise may have been open to. Again, this is speculative and in general I think it cuts both ways.