I mean, it seems like given the potential upside of the project, the downside from animal testing would have to be quite large to be worth avoiding (or the cost of avoiding it very low). The comment also implies a consensus about EA that seems straightforwardly wrong, i.e. that we have strong rules to avoid harm for other beings. Indeed, I feel like a very substantial part of the EA mindset is to be capable of considering tradeoffs that involve hurting some beings and causing some harm, if the benefits outweigh the costs.
EA Consensus I agree that there is not a consensus and my impression is that this is an area of genuine inconsistency among EAs, though I can’t speak to the distribution. I have had conversations with several EAs who either share Marianne’s sentiments or feel a significant degree of uncertainty about where they stand, both specifically about Alvea and more generally about tradeoffs of this nature. I don’t see their perspectives typically expressed or represented here on the Forum.
Caveating as a Norm My impression is that even among animal-focused EAs who agree with tradeoffs such as this one, there is still a concern for a cavalierness in how these actions are discussed. The general sentiment is something along the lines of, “EAs wouldn’t talk about this so flippantly if the individuals being harmed were human,” which may or may not be true. In the context of a post like the OP that is communicating a great deal of pressing information in a palatable three-minute read, I imagine a resolution to this could be as simple as a footnote along the lines of, “We recognize animal testing is an ethically loaded issue. Our reasons for employing it are beyond the scope of this post.”
Also, Gavin’s comment demonstrates there is seemingly some nuance to Alvea’s particular animal testing activities and if they have the capacity I would be interested in learning more.
(I should note as I haven’t said it elsewhere that despite these concerns, I am impressed with Alvea’s work and look forward to hearing more updates.)
I mean, it seems like given the potential upside of the project, the downside from animal testing would have to be quite large to be worth avoiding (or the cost of avoiding it very low). The comment also implies a consensus about EA that seems straightforwardly wrong, i.e. that we have strong rules to avoid harm for other beings. Indeed, I feel like a very substantial part of the EA mindset is to be capable of considering tradeoffs that involve hurting some beings and causing some harm, if the benefits outweigh the costs.
EA Consensus
I agree that there is not a consensus and my impression is that this is an area of genuine inconsistency among EAs, though I can’t speak to the distribution. I have had conversations with several EAs who either share Marianne’s sentiments or feel a significant degree of uncertainty about where they stand, both specifically about Alvea and more generally about tradeoffs of this nature. I don’t see their perspectives typically expressed or represented here on the Forum.
Caveating as a Norm
My impression is that even among animal-focused EAs who agree with tradeoffs such as this one, there is still a concern for a cavalierness in how these actions are discussed. The general sentiment is something along the lines of, “EAs wouldn’t talk about this so flippantly if the individuals being harmed were human,” which may or may not be true. In the context of a post like the OP that is communicating a great deal of pressing information in a palatable three-minute read, I imagine a resolution to this could be as simple as a footnote along the lines of, “We recognize animal testing is an ethically loaded issue. Our reasons for employing it are beyond the scope of this post.”
Also, Gavin’s comment demonstrates there is seemingly some nuance to Alvea’s particular animal testing activities and if they have the capacity I would be interested in learning more.
(I should note as I haven’t said it elsewhere that despite these concerns, I am impressed with Alvea’s work and look forward to hearing more updates.)
I don’t think we should police other people’s mindset. This is both harmful directly and is destined to create groupthink at least in some ways.
I, personally, very much do not feel we should consider tradeoffs that include causing direct harm to others.