Even if someone thinks that wild animals matter a lot morally, this seems like an unreasonably demanding standard:
I’d still be staunchly against this unless we could somehow guarantee that the lives of every individual animal would be net-positive
The aspects of life where we can reasonably expect ‘guarantees’, or that every single member of a class will benefit from a policy, are few. We will never be able to guarantee that space colonization will help every single animal, but we’ll never be able to guarantee that opposing it will help every single animal either. This requirement is a recipe for paralysis.
I took the “unless we can guarantee” part to mean something like, “we need to meet rigorous conditions before we can ethically seed wild animals onto other planets.”
The issue many people are taking with this post is semantic in nature. Having measured/methodical language does help with having more productive conversations. However, focusing on the specific words used detracts from the post’s main point.
Kurzgesagt videos have an outsized influence. This video was released just 17 hours ago and already has 1 million views and is the #2 trending video on YouTube. Additionally, the studio was recommended for almost $3 million in grant money from Open Phil to “support the creation of videos on topics relevant to effective altruism and improving humanity’s long-run future.”
With great power (and grant money), comes great responsibility.
It would have only taken a couple seconds to say something like the following:
“Given the large amount of suffering experienced by animals in the wild on Earth, we have the opportunity to design the ecosystem of this new planet with just flora and microbe species that are carefully selected to support human life.”
That’s just one example of an alternative direction. My main point is that there was a moral opportunity that was lost. This Kurzgesagt video casually spread an idea (seeding wild animals to new planets) that could lead to s-risk and didn’t even mention that the potential for s-risk exists. They also missed the opportunity to spread awareness of the neglected issue of wild animal suffering. It’s a double loss.
Open Phil has also recommended a $3.5 million grant to Wild Animal Initiative, but the potential impact of their funding is now discounted because they missed the opportunity to increase the tractability of wild animal welfare through this Kurzgesagt video.
I think pointing this concern on the EA forum could potentially lead to the issue of wild animal suffering being considered more in future videos, whether it be directly through the creators of Kurzgesagt or indirectly through Open Phil suggesting it to Kurzgesagt. So in the end, I’m glad OP decided to make this post.
The issue many people are taking with this post is semantic in nature. Having measured/methodical language does help with having more productive conversations. However, focusing on the specific words used detracts from the post’s main point.
You knocked it out of the park, this is what I was attempting to convey. I’m new to this community, english isn’t my native language (although, funnily enough, it’s my best), and I’m still getting used to the jargon and writing style. I appreciate the comment.
Kurzgesagt videos have an outsized influence. This video was released just 17 hours ago and already has 1 million views and is the #2 trending video on YouTube. Additionally, the studio was recommended for almost $3 million in grant money from Open Phil to “support the creation of videos on topics relevant to effective altruism and improving humanity’s long-run future.”
I had no idea that they were funded by Open Phil— I completely agree that they failed to align their awareness efforts with one of EA’s priorities here, and missed a large opportunity.
I think pointing this concern on the EA forum could potentially lead to the issue of wild animal suffering being considered more in future videos, whether it be directly through the creators of Kurzgesagt or indirectly through Open Phil suggesting it to Kurzgesagt. So in the end, I’m glad OP decided to make this post.
I’m very doubtful this would reach anyone at OP/Kurzgesagt, or that my post could make much impact, but of course I’d be happy if it did contribute to any conversations in that direction.
You would be surprised at what kind of reach you can have! Your post was up on the front page for a whole day and is now the second result when searching Kurzgesagt on the forum. Plus, you can also just email OPP and Kurzgesagt with a link to the post to increase the likelihood that they will see it. Who knows.. they might even comment and explain why they chose to create the video in the way they did or, better yet, edit the video. I recently had a random experience interacting with Dustin Moskovitz on Dank EA Memes so at this point I believe anything could happen.
Also, there’s a Facebook group called “Effective Altruism Editing and Review” that provides editing help for EA forum posts that you can check out. People will give you feedback on your post and through that you can learn the preferred style of writing and all the terms that are commonly used on the forum.
The issue many people are taking with this post is semantic in nature. Having measured/methodical language does help with having more productive conversations. However, focusing on the specific words used detracts from the post’s main point.
It sounds like the author agrees with my interpretation and supports the extreme position so I disagree this is merely semantics.
I believe Constance might be referencing to my entire post in the general sense, not just that tidbit, but perhaps it’s included. In hindsight, I could have worded this better as many folks are attempting to interpret my meaning behind that and other lines.
I’m not sure I would agree that it’s an extreme position to simply not take an action to bring wild life to other planets and instead just plants— but perhaps you mean in a sense from all-or-nothing viewpoint?
I think, if I understand correctly: you’re saying there could be a net-positive for animals on these new terraformed planets, as much as a net-negative, and that we simply don’t know? My opinion of this is that without a guarantee that we don’t accidentally cause another s-risk by introducing wildlife on these planets, that we simply shouldn’t. I wouldn’t say that’s paralysis, but instead a direct action to take no action.
We can still terraform and seed planets with human and plant life, wildlife is not a requirement needed in order for us to live healthy and fulfilling lives. Considering we haven’t solved Wild Animal Suffering on this planet, I’m advocating to not perpetuate the problem on the next one by promoting it as an essential step in terraforming planets.
I think in context, i.e. following OP’s sentence “If the key decision makers of the future decide they have to bring animals to other planets … introducing herbivores would be preferred …”—by ‘every individual animal’, OP means every individual animal brought to other planets—not every single animal in existence. OP also seems to focusing on terraforming rather than space colonization.
So I’m not sure why you think that it’s “an unreasonably demanding standard”. There are certainly ways of assigning value that would say that creating additional lives with negative experiences makes it worse for those lives compared to refraining from creating them (e.g. minimalist axiologies). These may be rarer within the EA community, but they definitely exist outside of it (e.g. some forms of Buddhist ethics). If that’s the case, and we’re only talking about the lives created, then opposing bringing animals will indeed help every single animal involved.
The implications of this is only that we find it preferable not to terraform—which isn’t paralysis—just opposition to that particular policy.
OP means every individual animal brought to other planets—not every single animal in existence.
Every policy we can take has some knock-on effect, however small, on a vast array of different people (and animals). We can’t just ignore some impacts by fiat. The justification for narrowing our scope and focusing only on some subset is typically because either some effects don’t matter morally (e.g. wild animals don’t matter, only humans) or because they are very small (most people will benefit and only a few will lose out). But OP rejects both these strategies, and takes a hard deontologic/rawlsian line, so even if he is only intending to discuss the impacts on some animals, logically he should apply the same to everyone—with paralysis the result.
The implications of this is only that we find it preferable not to terraform—which isn’t paralysis—just opposition to that particular policy.
No, because the world is so big and complicated that every single decision you make will make some animal worse off, and slightly change which animals will be born in the future, some of whom will suffer. OP is applying a standard here so demanding that, if applied generally, no action could pass muster.
I could have worded that better, it wasn’t meant to be a reasonable demand exactly because it’s impossible to guarantee, so I’m in complete agreement with you and that position. Apologies.
This is why I wouldn’t advocate for bringing in any wild animal life, and to only terraform / seed these new planets with flora and microbe species. That’s the only realistic guarantee that we wouldn’t be risking creating another s-risk in our future should we pursue such a path.
Even if someone thinks that wild animals matter a lot morally, this seems like an unreasonably demanding standard:
The aspects of life where we can reasonably expect ‘guarantees’, or that every single member of a class will benefit from a policy, are few. We will never be able to guarantee that space colonization will help every single animal, but we’ll never be able to guarantee that opposing it will help every single animal either. This requirement is a recipe for paralysis.
I took the “unless we can guarantee” part to mean something like, “we need to meet rigorous conditions before we can ethically seed wild animals onto other planets.”
The issue many people are taking with this post is semantic in nature. Having measured/methodical language does help with having more productive conversations. However, focusing on the specific words used detracts from the post’s main point.
Kurzgesagt videos have an outsized influence. This video was released just 17 hours ago and already has 1 million views and is the #2 trending video on YouTube. Additionally, the studio was recommended for almost $3 million in grant money from Open Phil to “support the creation of videos on topics relevant to effective altruism and improving humanity’s long-run future.”
With great power (and grant money), comes great responsibility.
It would have only taken a couple seconds to say something like the following:
“Given the large amount of suffering experienced by animals in the wild on Earth, we have the opportunity to design the ecosystem of this new planet with just flora and microbe species that are carefully selected to support human life.”
That’s just one example of an alternative direction. My main point is that there was a moral opportunity that was lost. This Kurzgesagt video casually spread an idea (seeding wild animals to new planets) that could lead to s-risk and didn’t even mention that the potential for s-risk exists. They also missed the opportunity to spread awareness of the neglected issue of wild animal suffering. It’s a double loss.
Open Phil has also recommended a $3.5 million grant to Wild Animal Initiative, but the potential impact of their funding is now discounted because they missed the opportunity to increase the tractability of wild animal welfare through this Kurzgesagt video.
I think pointing this concern on the EA forum could potentially lead to the issue of wild animal suffering being considered more in future videos, whether it be directly through the creators of Kurzgesagt or indirectly through Open Phil suggesting it to Kurzgesagt. So in the end, I’m glad OP decided to make this post.
You knocked it out of the park, this is what I was attempting to convey. I’m new to this community, english isn’t my native language (although, funnily enough, it’s my best), and I’m still getting used to the jargon and writing style. I appreciate the comment.
I had no idea that they were funded by Open Phil— I completely agree that they failed to align their awareness efforts with one of EA’s priorities here, and missed a large opportunity.
I’m very doubtful this would reach anyone at OP/Kurzgesagt, or that my post could make much impact, but of course I’d be happy if it did contribute to any conversations in that direction.
Thanks for the support Constance, appreciate it.
You would be surprised at what kind of reach you can have! Your post was up on the front page for a whole day and is now the second result when searching Kurzgesagt on the forum. Plus, you can also just email OPP and Kurzgesagt with a link to the post to increase the likelihood that they will see it. Who knows.. they might even comment and explain why they chose to create the video in the way they did or, better yet, edit the video. I recently had a random experience interacting with Dustin Moskovitz on Dank EA Memes so at this point I believe anything could happen.
Also, there’s a Facebook group called “Effective Altruism Editing and Review” that provides editing help for EA forum posts that you can check out. People will give you feedback on your post and through that you can learn the preferred style of writing and all the terms that are commonly used on the forum.
It sounds like the author agrees with my interpretation and supports the extreme position so I disagree this is merely semantics.
Two quick points on this:
I believe Constance might be referencing to my entire post in the general sense, not just that tidbit, but perhaps it’s included. In hindsight, I could have worded this better as many folks are attempting to interpret my meaning behind that and other lines.
I’m not sure I would agree that it’s an extreme position to simply not take an action to bring wild life to other planets and instead just plants— but perhaps you mean in a sense from all-or-nothing viewpoint?
I think, if I understand correctly: you’re saying there could be a net-positive for animals on these new terraformed planets, as much as a net-negative, and that we simply don’t know? My opinion of this is that without a guarantee that we don’t accidentally cause another s-risk by introducing wildlife on these planets, that we simply shouldn’t. I wouldn’t say that’s paralysis, but instead a direct action to take no action.
We can still terraform and seed planets with human and plant life, wildlife is not a requirement needed in order for us to live healthy and fulfilling lives. Considering we haven’t solved Wild Animal Suffering on this planet, I’m advocating to not perpetuate the problem on the next one by promoting it as an essential step in terraforming planets.
I think in context, i.e. following OP’s sentence “If the key decision makers of the future decide they have to bring animals to other planets … introducing herbivores would be preferred …”—by ‘every individual animal’, OP means every individual animal brought to other planets—not every single animal in existence. OP also seems to focusing on terraforming rather than space colonization.
So I’m not sure why you think that it’s “an unreasonably demanding standard”. There are certainly ways of assigning value that would say that creating additional lives with negative experiences makes it worse for those lives compared to refraining from creating them (e.g. minimalist axiologies). These may be rarer within the EA community, but they definitely exist outside of it (e.g. some forms of Buddhist ethics). If that’s the case, and we’re only talking about the lives created, then opposing bringing animals will indeed help every single animal involved.
The implications of this is only that we find it preferable not to terraform—which isn’t paralysis—just opposition to that particular policy.
Every policy we can take has some knock-on effect, however small, on a vast array of different people (and animals). We can’t just ignore some impacts by fiat. The justification for narrowing our scope and focusing only on some subset is typically because either some effects don’t matter morally (e.g. wild animals don’t matter, only humans) or because they are very small (most people will benefit and only a few will lose out). But OP rejects both these strategies, and takes a hard deontologic/rawlsian line, so even if he is only intending to discuss the impacts on some animals, logically he should apply the same to everyone—with paralysis the result.
No, because the world is so big and complicated that every single decision you make will make some animal worse off, and slightly change which animals will be born in the future, some of whom will suffer. OP is applying a standard here so demanding that, if applied generally, no action could pass muster.
Thanks for the comment Larks.
I could have worded that better, it wasn’t meant to be a reasonable demand exactly because it’s impossible to guarantee, so I’m in complete agreement with you and that position. Apologies.
This is why I wouldn’t advocate for bringing in any wild animal life, and to only terraform / seed these new planets with flora and microbe species. That’s the only realistic guarantee that we wouldn’t be risking creating another s-risk in our future should we pursue such a path.
Timothy’s reply is also on point to my thinking.