I can see how a person accused might reflexively take responsibility and do what it takes to express willingness to change. I mean, that’s what we’re taught to do in enlightened communities (animal rights is among the most intense, especially after #ARmetoo). I don’t see Jacy stepping back and soul-searching when told of accusations as clear evidence of his guilt. Especially since the belief that powerful people can unknowingly do immense harm to vulnerable individuals is so common in lefty culture (especially AR) these days. I think it’s easy to gaslight yourself and think you actually might have done something seriously wrong without knowing.
^That said, I think we should take Jacy at his word and not argue with any responsibility he takes. I’m not trying to exonerate him. I’m just saying expressing remorse at the possibility of unintentional wrongdoing is not evidence of guilt imo. You don’t know until it happens, but I can see myself reacting this way if someone came at me with a serious accusation that made me feel like a bad person. [Edit: If I was unsure whether I’d done any wrongdoing,] I’d probably instantly want to betray myself rather than face people thinking I was guilty and unremorseful.
I don’t think it is true that the above statement is not evidence of guilt. Firstly, you say yourself that we should take Jacy at his word, and he explicitly apologises for mistakes in the above and admits wrongdoing. Secondly, clearly his statement and the wider evidence is evidence of guilt in the sense that it is an update (a very large one) in favour of the proposition (1) that he has committed wrongdoing. This is true even if you think, as many commenters here seem to, that there is some probability that: (2) this is a kangaroo court and this is a coerced confession; or (3) that he’s apologising for things out of deference to the judgement of CEA, but he does not actually judge himself to have done anything wrong and therefore that the statement is, despite appearances, not an admission of guilt. Clearly, everyone should massively increase the probability of (1) given the evidence, very plausibly well past 50%. FWIW, in my personal view (2) and (3) are extremely unlikely, and I am surprised to see them get such support here.
I cannot identify with your hypothetical. If someone came to me and said “you have done something wrong, please apologise”, I definitely would not apologise and withdraw from public life without knowing what I was meant to have done. If I thought I had not done anything wrong, I would not apologise. And this is a clear case in which I would have first-person authority on whether I did anything wrong. The norm of taking responsibility regardless of whether you know you did anything wrong seems very bad, and definitely not enlightened. Consider the implications for criminal law—does this imply that all people accused should submit guilty pleas merely because they have been accused?
And this is a clear case in which I would have first-person authority on whether I did anything wrong.
I think this is the main point of disagreement here. Generally when you make sexual or romantic advances on someone and those advances make them uncomfortable, you’re often not aware of the effect that you’re having (and they may not feel safe telling you), so you’re not the authority on whether you did something wrong.
Which is not to say that you’re guilty because they accused you! It’s possible to behave perfectly reasonably and for people around you to get upset, even to blame you for it. In that scenario you would not be guilty of doing anything wrong necessarily. But more often it looks like this:
someone does something inappropriate without realizing it,
impartial observers agree, having heard the facts, that it was inappropriate,
it seems clearly-enough inappropriate that the offender had a moral duty to identify it as such in advance and not do it.
Then they need to apologize and do what’s necessary to prevent it happening again, including withdrawing from the community if necessary.
I agree that the could be the case once in a person’s life for a single mild misdemeanour. But the reference class here is actions sufficient to make numerous individuals complain to the overall organisation leading a movement you are a part of, as well as additional evidence of people complaining to your university about you earlier in your life. I don’t think the vast majority of people would fail to know what they had done wrong in these cases.
Just to remark on the “criminal law” point – I think it’s appropriate to apply a different, and laxer, standard here than we do for criminal law, because:
the penalties are not criminal penalties, and in particular do not deprive anyone of anything they have a right to, like their property or freedom – CEA are free to exclude anyone from EAG who in their best judgement would make it a worse event to attend,
we don’t have access to the kinds of evidence or evidence-gathering resources that criminal courts do, so realistically it’s pretty likely that in most cases of misconduct or abuse we won’t have criminal-standard evidence that it happened, and we’ll have to either act despite that or never act at all. Some would defend never acting at all, I’m sure (or acting in only the most clear-cut cases), but I don’t think it’s the mainstream view.
“Consider the implications for criminal law—does this imply that all people accused should submit guilty pleas merely because they have been accused?”
Good example, actually, because false confessions are a thing. The fact that someone would confess or apologize alone does not entail guilt. You may not do it (or think you would), but false confessions happen because it’s easy to imagine you did something wrong when people you trust/fear are telling you you did. I’m sure being a scrupulous and ethical person steeped in social justice ideas about being naturally ignorant of the impact of your actions doesn’t help.
I believe we should respect what responsibility he takes above. I’m not trying to say he didn’t do something wrong (seems very possible as well) but I think trying to discern that from this formal apology is not really possible. Saying that you would never apologize like this if you were innocent just isn’t real evidence, since many people have.
You don’t know until it happens, but I can see myself reacting this way if someone came at me with a serious accusation that made me feel like a bad person. [Edit: If I was unsure whether I’d done any wrongdoing,] I’d probably instantly want to betray myself rather than face people thinking I was guilty and unremorseful.
But in that state of mind, your apology would sound extremely apologetic rather than very calculated? If the apology sounds calculated (edit: in the sense that many people discuss whether it even is an admission of guilt at all), it’s a sign that the person (edit: isn’t in the turmoil of gaslighting themselves anymore and) either thinks they have high integrity, or they are comfortable with sneakiness. Unfortunately the two are going to look very similar.
I think this apology sounds a lot like the template of a dignified apology that a lot of us have in our heads. Take as much responsibility as you can, don’t shrink from the accusations or blame anyone else. He speaks several times of the restorative process, and part of that is offering apologies along these lines. There are many classes you can take and books you can read (I’ve read some), popular in Jacy’s communities, on how to give these apologies. He may well have composed it alongside CEA. Why would you think it should sound emotional, like he wrote it the moment he learned of the reprimand?
It doesn’t mean much, but my first reaction was that it seemed like he was overreacting and trying to rise above by taking a lot of responsibility. I really don’t know, though. I think all of our speculation on the basis of a formal apology is unlikely to clarify anything.
I think it’s easy to gaslight yourself and think you actually might have done something seriously wrong without knowing.
True. What’s unfortunate is that the type of person who knowingly does inappropriate things (without any sense of remorse) is guaranteed to use what you say as a phony excuse. I’m not alleging that the sentiment expressed in the apology was knowingly insincere; I’m merely pointing out that this gives you zero Bayesian evidence to distinguish two very different kinds of situations.
The fact that CEA has not taken steps to clear up the ambiguities (as other commenters have pointed out) is some evidence in favor of the hypothesis that “today’s climate makes things look worse than they are”. But there are plausible alternatives for why CEA isn’t commenting on that.
If you wanted to write an apology that assures CEA that things were concluding properly, while also trying to preserve the maximum of plausible deniability for any morally (more) serious allegations, how would you write it when the truth is in fact relatively benign? And how would you write it when the truth was not so benign?
Okay, sorry for pressing the point. In my view this didn’t quite address what I wanted to say but did not say well. You say A, I argue that it’s either B or C, then you say we don’t know whether it’s B or C. Fine with me! What I wanted to convey is that we should at least point out that C is a serious option, and I think the EA community could become less naive with these things because that’s what creates an environment where sneakiness doesn’t work anymore. The way I meant this, B or C are not about what the truth is, but what Jacy’s approach to facing allegations is. And I agree with your other comment that it could be either option.
I’m not sure what you mean by A, B, and C. Just to be clear, all I’m saying is that the only thing that this apology has ruled out is “Jacy vehemently denies any possibility of wrongdoing and would not cooperate with CEA’s decision regarding him.” Other than that, I feel it is compatible with most scenarios of his guilt/innocence and of his reaction to being accused.
The question is about probabilities of guilt/innocence. If you have multiple people accuse you of sexual or non-sexual harassment over the course of at least 7 years in different communities, then you are either extremely unlucky or you have actually harassed people. He also admits guilt
I can see how a person accused might reflexively take responsibility and do what it takes to express willingness to change. I mean, that’s what we’re taught to do in enlightened communities (animal rights is among the most intense, especially after #ARmetoo). I don’t see Jacy stepping back and soul-searching when told of accusations as clear evidence of his guilt. Especially since the belief that powerful people can unknowingly do immense harm to vulnerable individuals is so common in lefty culture (especially AR) these days. I think it’s easy to gaslight yourself and think you actually might have done something seriously wrong without knowing.
^That said, I think we should take Jacy at his word and not argue with any responsibility he takes. I’m not trying to exonerate him. I’m just saying expressing remorse at the possibility of unintentional wrongdoing is not evidence of guilt imo. You don’t know until it happens, but I can see myself reacting this way if someone came at me with a serious accusation that made me feel like a bad person. [Edit: If I was unsure whether I’d done any wrongdoing,] I’d probably instantly want to betray myself rather than face people thinking I was guilty and unremorseful.
I don’t think it is true that the above statement is not evidence of guilt. Firstly, you say yourself that we should take Jacy at his word, and he explicitly apologises for mistakes in the above and admits wrongdoing. Secondly, clearly his statement and the wider evidence is evidence of guilt in the sense that it is an update (a very large one) in favour of the proposition (1) that he has committed wrongdoing. This is true even if you think, as many commenters here seem to, that there is some probability that: (2) this is a kangaroo court and this is a coerced confession; or (3) that he’s apologising for things out of deference to the judgement of CEA, but he does not actually judge himself to have done anything wrong and therefore that the statement is, despite appearances, not an admission of guilt. Clearly, everyone should massively increase the probability of (1) given the evidence, very plausibly well past 50%. FWIW, in my personal view (2) and (3) are extremely unlikely, and I am surprised to see them get such support here.
I cannot identify with your hypothetical. If someone came to me and said “you have done something wrong, please apologise”, I definitely would not apologise and withdraw from public life without knowing what I was meant to have done. If I thought I had not done anything wrong, I would not apologise. And this is a clear case in which I would have first-person authority on whether I did anything wrong. The norm of taking responsibility regardless of whether you know you did anything wrong seems very bad, and definitely not enlightened. Consider the implications for criminal law—does this imply that all people accused should submit guilty pleas merely because they have been accused?
I think this is the main point of disagreement here. Generally when you make sexual or romantic advances on someone and those advances make them uncomfortable, you’re often not aware of the effect that you’re having (and they may not feel safe telling you), so you’re not the authority on whether you did something wrong.
Which is not to say that you’re guilty because they accused you! It’s possible to behave perfectly reasonably and for people around you to get upset, even to blame you for it. In that scenario you would not be guilty of doing anything wrong necessarily. But more often it looks like this:
someone does something inappropriate without realizing it,
impartial observers agree, having heard the facts, that it was inappropriate,
it seems clearly-enough inappropriate that the offender had a moral duty to identify it as such in advance and not do it.
Then they need to apologize and do what’s necessary to prevent it happening again, including withdrawing from the community if necessary.
I agree that the could be the case once in a person’s life for a single mild misdemeanour. But the reference class here is actions sufficient to make numerous individuals complain to the overall organisation leading a movement you are a part of, as well as additional evidence of people complaining to your university about you earlier in your life. I don’t think the vast majority of people would fail to know what they had done wrong in these cases.
Just to remark on the “criminal law” point – I think it’s appropriate to apply a different, and laxer, standard here than we do for criminal law, because:
the penalties are not criminal penalties, and in particular do not deprive anyone of anything they have a right to, like their property or freedom – CEA are free to exclude anyone from EAG who in their best judgement would make it a worse event to attend,
we don’t have access to the kinds of evidence or evidence-gathering resources that criminal courts do, so realistically it’s pretty likely that in most cases of misconduct or abuse we won’t have criminal-standard evidence that it happened, and we’ll have to either act despite that or never act at all. Some would defend never acting at all, I’m sure (or acting in only the most clear-cut cases), but I don’t think it’s the mainstream view.
.
“Consider the implications for criminal law—does this imply that all people accused should submit guilty pleas merely because they have been accused?”
Good example, actually, because false confessions are a thing. The fact that someone would confess or apologize alone does not entail guilt. You may not do it (or think you would), but false confessions happen because it’s easy to imagine you did something wrong when people you trust/fear are telling you you did. I’m sure being a scrupulous and ethical person steeped in social justice ideas about being naturally ignorant of the impact of your actions doesn’t help.
I believe we should respect what responsibility he takes above. I’m not trying to say he didn’t do something wrong (seems very possible as well) but I think trying to discern that from this formal apology is not really possible. Saying that you would never apologize like this if you were innocent just isn’t real evidence, since many people have.
.
But in that state of mind, your apology would sound extremely apologetic rather than very calculated? If the apology sounds calculated (edit: in the sense that many people discuss whether it even is an admission of guilt at all), it’s a sign that the person (edit: isn’t in the turmoil of gaslighting themselves anymore and) either thinks they have high integrity, or they are comfortable with sneakiness. Unfortunately the two are going to look very similar.
I think this apology sounds a lot like the template of a dignified apology that a lot of us have in our heads. Take as much responsibility as you can, don’t shrink from the accusations or blame anyone else. He speaks several times of the restorative process, and part of that is offering apologies along these lines. There are many classes you can take and books you can read (I’ve read some), popular in Jacy’s communities, on how to give these apologies. He may well have composed it alongside CEA. Why would you think it should sound emotional, like he wrote it the moment he learned of the reprimand?
It doesn’t mean much, but my first reaction was that it seemed like he was overreacting and trying to rise above by taking a lot of responsibility. I really don’t know, though. I think all of our speculation on the basis of a formal apology is unlikely to clarify anything.
True. What’s unfortunate is that the type of person who knowingly does inappropriate things (without any sense of remorse) is guaranteed to use what you say as a phony excuse. I’m not alleging that the sentiment expressed in the apology was knowingly insincere; I’m merely pointing out that this gives you zero Bayesian evidence to distinguish two very different kinds of situations.
The fact that CEA has not taken steps to clear up the ambiguities (as other commenters have pointed out) is some evidence in favor of the hypothesis that “today’s climate makes things look worse than they are”. But there are plausible alternatives for why CEA isn’t commenting on that.
If you wanted to write an apology that assures CEA that things were concluding properly, while also trying to preserve the maximum of plausible deniability for any morally (more) serious allegations, how would you write it when the truth is in fact relatively benign? And how would you write it when the truth was not so benign?
I think we just don’t know and we’re probably not going to get any more blood out of this turnip.
Okay, sorry for pressing the point. In my view this didn’t quite address what I wanted to say but did not say well. You say A, I argue that it’s either B or C, then you say we don’t know whether it’s B or C. Fine with me! What I wanted to convey is that we should at least point out that C is a serious option, and I think the EA community could become less naive with these things because that’s what creates an environment where sneakiness doesn’t work anymore. The way I meant this, B or C are not about what the truth is, but what Jacy’s approach to facing allegations is. And I agree with your other comment that it could be either option.
I’m not sure what you mean by A, B, and C. Just to be clear, all I’m saying is that the only thing that this apology has ruled out is “Jacy vehemently denies any possibility of wrongdoing and would not cooperate with CEA’s decision regarding him.” Other than that, I feel it is compatible with most scenarios of his guilt/innocence and of his reaction to being accused.
The question is about probabilities of guilt/innocence. If you have multiple people accuse you of sexual or non-sexual harassment over the course of at least 7 years in different communities, then you are either extremely unlucky or you have actually harassed people. He also admits guilt
“I’m merely pointing out that this gives you zero Bayesian evidence to distinguish two very different kinds of situations.”
This is all I was trying to point out, too. We know he’s cooperating with CEA and accepting a reprimand. I think that’s all this apology tells us.
.