Thanks for commenting :) I think the dynamics around polyamory are important to think about in these types of discussions.
My own take: I agree that lots of people being poly makes it harder to identify norm violations, compared with traditional environments, and that this is a significant cost. So when thinking about how to set norms about professional boundaries, we should be aware that the “standard” norms are calibrated for primarily-monogamous environments, and therefore err on the side of being more careful than we otherwise would.
De-normalizing is pretty broad, though, so I’m keen to think more about what this might involve. Things like not assuming people are poly by default definitely seem valuable. On the other hand, I wouldn’t endorse “opposing” poly more generally—I think we should be very cautious about passing judgement on people’s sexual identities (especially when poly people often face hostility from the rest of society).
Hi Richard, Could you explain how lots of people being poly makes it harder to identify norm violations? What kind of norms do you perceive to be different? I certainly agree it is bad to assume anyone is poly/not poly/interested in any kid of romantic interaction/gay/straight/or anything else, but I am curious about what kind of norm violations you are referring to.
I think you may have the sign wrong on this though:
especially when poly people often face hostility from the rest of society
In general people have decent reasons for the things they do. For this reason, EAs generally align with most of western society on most issues. e.g. we are against theft. The fact that the rest of society is also hostile to thieves isn’t a reason for us to be nice to thieves—it is supportive evidence that we should also avoid theft, because similar reasons apply. Unless there is some strong EA-specific argument at play, I think our default in most scenarios should be to adopt similar norms to the rest of society.
It’s also worth noting that while western society is generally somewhat intolerant of polygamy, much of the world is not. It is legal in much of Africa and Sourthern Asia, and quite common in some countries. However, I generally think we should prefer to adopt western moral norms to those of these places, partly because they often treat women poorly.
While wider western societies are often a good baseline to use, I think it’s important for EA to try to be more moral than our surroundings. Based on my moral standards, if existing norms punish consenting adults for making certain personal decisions about their private lives, we should try to strongly avoid adopting similar hostility (I think this is a pretty widely-endorsed principle in general, and it’s just that others aren’t as consistent about it).
That’s separate from noticing ways in which higher prevalence of polyamory has flow-through effects on other dynamics (like the ones I identified in my previous comment) and trying to ensure those go well; I think that’s a more productive discussion than trying to debate about polyamory as a whole.
While polyamory definitely leads to different dynamics of women’s safety issues(like the ones throwaway5 pointed out), making every discussion of women’s safety as a discussion about poly is unproductive.
I dunno, you’re the one making this very much about that. As is throwaway5, who seems to share your views, writing style, and confusion the difference between polygamy and polyamory.
Thanks for commenting :) I think the dynamics around polyamory are important to think about in these types of discussions.
My own take: I agree that lots of people being poly makes it harder to identify norm violations, compared with traditional environments, and that this is a significant cost. So when thinking about how to set norms about professional boundaries, we should be aware that the “standard” norms are calibrated for primarily-monogamous environments, and therefore err on the side of being more careful than we otherwise would.
De-normalizing is pretty broad, though, so I’m keen to think more about what this might involve. Things like not assuming people are poly by default definitely seem valuable. On the other hand, I wouldn’t endorse “opposing” poly more generally—I think we should be very cautious about passing judgement on people’s sexual identities (especially when poly people often face hostility from the rest of society).
Hi Richard, Could you explain how lots of people being poly makes it harder to identify norm violations? What kind of norms do you perceive to be different? I certainly agree it is bad to assume anyone is poly/not poly/interested in any kid of romantic interaction/gay/straight/or anything else, but I am curious about what kind of norm violations you are referring to.
Thanks for the thoughtful response!
I think you may have the sign wrong on this though:
In general people have decent reasons for the things they do. For this reason, EAs generally align with most of western society on most issues. e.g. we are against theft. The fact that the rest of society is also hostile to thieves isn’t a reason for us to be nice to thieves—it is supportive evidence that we should also avoid theft, because similar reasons apply. Unless there is some strong EA-specific argument at play, I think our default in most scenarios should be to adopt similar norms to the rest of society.
It’s also worth noting that while western society is generally somewhat intolerant of polygamy, much of the world is not. It is legal in much of Africa and Sourthern Asia, and quite common in some countries. However, I generally think we should prefer to adopt western moral norms to those of these places, partly because they often treat women poorly.
While wider western societies are often a good baseline to use, I think it’s important for EA to try to be more moral than our surroundings. Based on my moral standards, if existing norms punish consenting adults for making certain personal decisions about their private lives, we should try to strongly avoid adopting similar hostility (I think this is a pretty widely-endorsed principle in general, and it’s just that others aren’t as consistent about it).
That’s separate from noticing ways in which higher prevalence of polyamory has flow-through effects on other dynamics (like the ones I identified in my previous comment) and trying to ensure those go well; I think that’s a more productive discussion than trying to debate about polyamory as a whole.
+1 agree with Richard.
While polyamory definitely leads to different dynamics of women’s safety issues(like the ones throwaway5 pointed out), making every discussion of women’s safety as a discussion about poly is unproductive.
I dunno, you’re the one making this very much about that. As is throwaway5, who seems to share your views, writing style, and confusion the difference between polygamy and polyamory.