I have shortened the original reply as it was a bit repetitive and made improvements in its clarity. However, it is still not optimal. Thus I have written a new reply for first-time readers to better appreciate my position. You can find the somewhat improved original reply at the end of this new reply (if interested):
To be honest, I just don’t get why you would feel the same if the 5 minor headaches were spread across 5 people. Supposing that 5 minor headaches in one person is (experientially) worse than 1 major headache in one person (as you request), consider WHAT MAKES IT THE CASE that the single person who suffers 5 minor headaches is worse off than a person who suffers just 1 major headache, other things being equal.
Well, imagine that we were this person who suffers 5 minor headaches. We suffer one minor headache one day, suffer another minor headache sometime after that, then another after that, etc. By the end of our 5th minor headache, we will have experienced what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches. After all, we went through 5 minor headaches! Note that the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-headaches consists simply in the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-the-first-minor-headache then the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-the-second-minor-headache then the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-the-third-minor-headache, etc. Importantly, the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-headaches is NOT whatever we experience right after having our 5th headache (e.g. exhaustion that might set in after going through many headaches or some super painful headache that is the “synthesis” of the intensity of the past 5 minor headaches). It is NOT a singular/continuous feeling like the feeling we have when we’re experiencing a normal pain episode. It is simply this: the what-it’s-like of going through one minor headache, then another (sometime later), then another, then another, then another. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Now, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might have long forgotten about the first minor headache because, say, it happened so long ago. So, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might not have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches even though we in fact have experienced what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches. As a result, if someone asked us whether we’ve been through more pain due to our minor headaches or more pain through a major headache that, say, we recently experienced, we would likely incorrectly answer the latter.
But, if we did have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches, say, because we experienced all 5 minor headaches rather recently, then there will be a clear sense to us that going through them was (experientially) worse than the major headache. The 5 minor headaches would each be “fresh in our mind”, and thus the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches would be “fresh in our mind”. And with that what-it’s-like fresh in mind, it seems clear to us that it caused us more pain than the major headache did.
Now, a headache being “fresh in our mind” does not mean that the headache needs to be so fresh that it is qualitatively the same as experiencing a real headache. Being fresh in our mind just means we have an accurate appreciation/idea of what it felt like, just as we have some accurate idea of what our favorite dish tastes like.
Because we have appreciations of our past pains (to varying degrees of accuracy), we sometimes compare them and have a clear sense that one set of pains is worse than another. But it is not the comparison and the clear sense we have of one set of pain being worse than another that ultimately makes one set of pains worse than another. Rather, it is the other way around. It is the what-it’s-like-of-having-5-minor-headaches that is worse – more painful – than the what-it’s-like-of-having-a-major-headache. And if we have an accurate appreciation of both what-it’s-likes, then we will conclude the same. But, when we don’t, then our own conclusions could be wrong, like in the example provided earlier of a forgotten minor headache.
So, at the end of the day, what makes a person who has 5 minor headaches worse off than a person who has 1 major headache is the fact that he experienced what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches.
But, in the case where the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, there is no longer the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches because each of the 5 headaches is experienced by a different person. As a result, the only what-it’s-like present is the what-it’s-like-of-experiencing-one-minor-headache. Five different people each experience this what-it’s-like, but no one experiences what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches. Moreover, the what-it’s-like of each of the 5 people cannot be linked to form the what-it’s-like-of-experiencing-5-minor headaches because the 5 people are experientially independent beings.
Now, it’s clearly the case that the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is not worse than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache. Given what I said in the previous paragraph, therefore, there is nothing present that could be worse than the what-it’s-like-to-go-through-a-major-headache in the case where the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people. Therefore, 5 minor headaches, spread across 5 people, cannot be (and thus is not) worse (experientially speaking) than one major headache.
Therefore, “conditional on agreeing 5 minor headaches in one person is worse than 1 major headache in one person, … [one should not] feel exactly the same if it were spread out over 5 people.”!
Finally, since 5 headaches, spread across 5 people, is not EXPERIENTIALLY worse than another person’s single major headache, therefore the case in which Emma would suffer a major headache is MORALLY worse than the case in which 5 different people would each suffer a minor headache. (If you disagree with this, please see Objection 1.2 and my response to it) Therefore what I said in choice situation 3 holds.
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The somewhat improved though sub-optimal original reply:
To be honest, I just don’t get why you would feel the same if the pains were spread out over 5 people. I mean, when the 5 minor headaches occur in a single person, then FOR that person, there is a very clear sense how the 5 headaches are worse to endure than 1 major headache. But once the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 different people, that clear sense is lost because each of the 5 people only experiences at most 1 minor headache. In each experiencing only 1 minor headache, NOT ONE of the 5 people experience something worse than a major headache (e.g., what Emma would go through). So none of them would individually be worse off than Emma. Are you really ready to say that the 5 of them together are worse off than Emma? But in what sense? Certainly not in any experiential sense (since none of them individually experiences anything worse than a major headache and they are experientially independent of each other). But then I don’t see what other sense there are that matters.
If a small headache is worth 2 points of disutility and a large headache is worth 5, the total amount of pain is worse because 2*5>5. It’s a pretty straightforward total utilitarian interpretation.I find it irrelevant whether there’s one person who’s worse off; the total amount of pain is larger.
I’ll also note that I find the concept of personhood to be incoherent in itself, so it really shouldn’t matter at all whether it’s the same “person”. But while I think an incoherent personhood concept is sufficient for saying there’s no difference if it’s spread out over 5 people, I don’t think it’s necessary. Simple total utilitarianism gets you there.
I assume we agree that we determine the points of disutility of the minor and major headache by how they each feel to someone. Since the major headache hurts more, it’s worth more points (5 in this case).
But, were a single person to suffer all 5 minor headaches, he would end up having felt what it is like to go through 5 headaches—a feeling that would make him say things like “Going through those 5 minor headaches is worse/more painful than a major headache” or “There was more/greater/larger pain in going through those 5 minor headaches than a major headache”.
We find these statements intelligible. But that is because we’re at a point in life where we too have felt what it is like to go through multiple minor pains, and we too can consider (i.e. hold before our mind) a major pain in isolation, and compare these feelings: the what-it’s-like of going through multiple minor pains vs the what-it’s-like of going through a major pain.
But once the situation is that the 5 minor headache are spread across 5 people, there is no longer the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, just 5 independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache. As a result, in this situation, when you say “the total amount of pain [involved in 5 minor headaches] is worse [one major headache]”, or that “the total amount of pain [involved in 5 minor headaches] is larger [than one major headache], there is nothing to support their intelligibility.
So, I honestly don’t understand these statements. Sure, you can use numbers to show that 10 > 5, but there is no reality that that maps on to (i.e. describes). I worry that representing pain in numbers is extremely misleading in this way.
Regarding personhood, I think my position just requires me to be committed to there being a single subject-of-experience (is that what you meant by person?) who extends through time to the extent that it can be the subject of more than one pain episode. I must admit I know very little about the topic of personhood. On that note, any further comments that help your position and question mine would be helpful. Thanks.
I think this is confusing means of estimation with actual utils. You can estimate that 5 headaches are worse than one by asking someone to compare five headaches vs. one. You could also produce an estimate by just asking someone who has received one small headache and one large headache whether they would rather receive 5 more small headaches or one more large headache. But there’s no reason you can’t apply these estimates more broadly. There’s real pain behind the estimates that can be added up.
I agree with the first half of what you said, but I don’t agree that “there’s no reason you can’t apply these estimates more broadly (e.g. to a situation where 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 persons).
Sure, a person who has felt only one minor headache and one major headache can say “If put to the choice, I think I’d rather receive another major headache than 5 more minor headaches”, but he says this as a result of imagining roughly what it would be like for him to go through 5 of this sort of minor headache and comparing that to what it was like for him to go through the one major headache.
Importantly, what is supporting the intelligibility of his statement is STILL the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, except that this time (unlike in my previous reply), the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is imagined rather than actual.
But in the situation where the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, there isn’t a what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, imagined or actual, to support the intelligibility of the claim that 5 minor headaches (spread across 5 people) are worse or more painful than a major headache. What there is are five independent what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache, since
1) the 5 people are obviously experientially independent of each other (i.e. each of them can only experience their own pain and no one else’s), and
2) each of the 5 people experience just one minor headache.
But these five independent what-it’s-likes can’t support the intelligibility of the above claim. None of these what-it-likes are individually worse or more painful than the major headache. And they cannot collectively be worse or more painful than the major headache because they are experientially independent of each other.
The what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is importantly different from five independent what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache, and only the former can support the intelligibility of a claim like 5 minor headaches are worse than a major headache. But since the former what-it’s-like can only occur in a single subject-of-experience, that means that, more specifically, the former what-it’s-like can only support the intelligibility of a claim like 5 minor headaches, all had by one person, is worse than a major headache. It cannot support a claim like 5 minor headaches, spread across 5 people, are worse than a major headache.
It’s the same 5 headaches. It doesn’t matter if you’re imagining one person going through it on five days or imagine five different people going through it on one day. You can still imagine 5 headaches. You can imagine what it would be like to say live the lives of 5 different people for one day with and without a minor headache. Just as you can imagine living the life of one person for 5 days with and without a headache. The connection to an individual is arbitrary and unnecessary.
Now this goes into the meaningless of personhood as a concept, but what would even count as the individual in your view? For simplicity, let’s say 2 modest headaches in one person are worse than one major headache. What if between the two headaches, the person gets a major brain injury and their personality is completely altered (as has happened in real life). Let’s say they also have no memory of their former self. Are they no longer the same person? Under your view, is it no longer possible to say that the two modest headaches are worse than the major headache? If it still is, why is it possible after this radical change in personality with no memory continuity but impossible between two different people?
If I’m understanding you correctly, you essentially deny that there is a metaphysical difference (i.e. a REAL difference) between
A. One subject-of-experience experiencing 5 headaches over 5 days (say, one headache per day), and
B. Five independent subjects-of-experience each experiencing 1 headache over 5 days (say, each subject has their 1 headache on a different day, such that on any given day, only one of them has a headache).
And you deny this BECAUSE you think that, in case A for example, there simply is no fact of the matter as to how many subjects-of-experience there were over those 5 days IN THE FIRST PLACE, and NOT because you think one subject-of-experience going through 5 headaches IS IDENTICAL to five independent subjects-of-experience each going through 1 headache.
Also, you are not simply saying that we don’t KNOW how many subjects of experience there were over those 5 days in case A, but that there actually isn’t an answer to how many there were. The indeterminate-ness is “built into the world” so to speak, and not just existing in our state of mind.
You therefore think it is arbitrary to say that one subject-of-experience experienced all 5 headaches over the 5 days or that 5 subjects-of-experience each experienced 1 headache over the 5 days.
But importantly, IF there is a fact of the matter as to how many subjects-of-experience there is in any given time period, you would NOT continue to think that there is no metaphysical difference between case A and B. And this is because you agree that one subject-of-experience going through 5 headaches is not identical to five independent subjects-of-experience each going through 1 headache. You would say, “Obviously they are not identical. The problem, however, is that—in case A, for example—there simply is no fact of the matter as to how many subjects-of-experience there were over those 5 days IN THE FIRST PLACE so saying that one subject-of-experience experienced all 5 headaches is arbitrary.”
I hope that was an accurate portrayal of your view.
Let us then try to build some consensus from the ground up:
First, there is surely experience. That there is experience, whether it be pain experience or color experience or whatever, is the most obvious truth there is. I assume you don’t deny that. Ok, so we agree that
1) there is experience.
Second, well, each experience is clearly SOMEONE’S experience—it is experience FOR SOMEONE. Suppose there is a pain experience—a headache. Someone IN PARTICULAR experiences that headache. Let’s suppose you’re not experiencing it and that I am. Then I am that particular someone. I assume you don’t deny any of that. Ok, so we agree that
2) there is not just experience, but that for every experience, there is also a particular subject-of-experience who experiences it, whether or not a particular subject-of-experience can also extend through time and be the subject of multiple experiences.
That’s all the consensus building I want to do right now.
Now, let me report something about myself (for the sake of argument, just assume it’s true): I felt 5 headaches over the past 5 days. Here (just as in case A) you would say that there is no fact of the matter whether one subject-of-experience felt those 5 headaches or five different subjects-of-experience felt those 5 headaches, even though the “I” in “I just felt 5 headaches” makes it SOUND LIKE there was only one subject-of-experience.
If I then say that, “no no, there was just one subject-of-experience who felt those 5 headaches”, your question (and challenge) to me is what is my criteria for saying that there was just one subject-of-experience and not five. More specifically, you ask whether memory-continuity and personality-continuity are necessary conditions for being the same subject-of-experience over the 5 days, “same” in the sense of being numerically identical and not qualitatively identical.
Here’s my answer:
I’m sure philosophers have tried to come up with various criteria. Presumably that’s what philosophers engaged in the field called “personal identity” in part do, though I don’t know much about that field. Anyways, presumably they are all trying to come up with a criteria that would neatly accommodate all our intuitive judgements in specific (perhaps imagined) cases concerning personal identity (e.g., split brain cases). A criteria that succeeded in doing that would presumably be regarded as the “true” or “correct” criteria. In other words, the ONLY way philosophers have for testing their criteria is presumably to see if their criteria would yield results that accord with our intuitions. Moreover, if the “correct” criteria is found, philosophers are presumably going to say that it is correct not merely in the sense that it accurately describes the implicit/sub-conscious assumptions that we hold about personal identity which have led us to have the intuitions we have. Indeed, presumably, they are going to say that the criteria is correct in the stronger sense that it accurately describes the conditions under which a subject-of-experience IN REALITY is the same numerical subject over time. Insofar as they would say this, philosophers are assuming that our intuitive judgements represent the truth (i.e. the way things actually are). For only if the intuitions represented the truth would it be the case that a criteria that accommodated all of them would thereby be a criteria that described reality.
But then the question is, do our intuitions represent the truth? I don’t know, and so even if I were able to give you a criteria that accommodated all our intuitions and that, according to this criteria, there was only one subject-of-experience who experienced all 5 headaches over those 5 days, I would not have, in any convincing way, demonstrated that there was in fact only one subject-of-experience who experienced all 5 headaches over those 5 days, instead of 5 independent subjects-of-experience who each experienced 1 headache. For you can always ask what reasons I have for taking our intuitions to represent the truth. I don’t think there is a convincing answer. So I don’t think presenting you with criteria will ultimately satisfy you, at least I don’t think it should.
Of course, that’s not to say that we wouldn’t know what would have to be the case for it to be true that one subject-of-experience experienced all 5 headaches over the 5 days: That would be true just in case one subject-of experience IN FACT experienced all 5 headaches over the 5 days. We just don’t know if that is the case. And I have just argued above that providing a criteria that accords with all our intuitions won’t really help us to know if that is the case either.
So, what reason can I give for believing that there really was just one subject-of-experience who experienced all 5 headaches over those 5 days? Well, what reason can YOU give for saying that there isn’t a fact of the matter as to whether there was one subject-of-experience who experienced all 5 headaches over those 5 days or give independent subjects-of-experience who each experienced only 1 headache over those 5 days?
Are we at a standstill? We would be if neither of us can provide reasons for our views. Your view attributes a fundamental indeterminate-ness to the world itself, and I wonder what reason you have for such a view.
I have a reason for believing my view. But this reply is already very long, so before I describe my reason, I would just like some confirmation that we’re on the same page. Thanks.
P.S. I’ll just add (as a more direct response to the first paragraph of your response): Yes, I can imagine 5 headaches by either imagining myself in the shoes of one person for 5 days or imagining myself in the shoes of 5 different people for one day each. In both cases, I imagine 5 headaches. True. BUT. When I imagine myself in the shoes of 5 different people for one day each, what is going on is that one subject-of-experience (i.e. me), takes on the independent what-it’s-likes (i.e. experiences) associated with the 5 different people, and IN DOING SO, LINKS THESE what-it’s-likes—which in reality are experientially independent of each other—TOGETHER IN ME. So ultimately, when I imagine myself in the shoes of 5 different people for one day each, I am, in effect, imagining what it’s like to go through 5 headaches.
But in reality, there is no such what-it’s-like among the 5 different people. The only what-it’s-like present is the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-headache, which each of the 5 different people would experience.
In essence, what I am saying is that when you or I imagine ourselves in the shoes of 5 different people for a day each, we do end up with the (imagined) what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-headaches, but there is no such what-it’s-like in reality among those different 5 people. But there needs to be in order for their 5 independent headaches to be worse than a major headache. I hope that made sense. If it didn’t, then I guess you can ignore these last two paragraphs.
P.S.S. As a more direct response to your questions in the second paragraph of your response: it would still be possible IF the person is still the same subject-of-experience after the radical change in personality and loss of memory. It is impossible between two different people because they are numerically different subjects-of-experience.
1) There is no distinct personal identity; rather it’s a continuum. The you today is different than the you yesterday. The you today is also different from the me today. These differences are matters of degree. I don’t think there is clearly a “subject of experience” that exists across time. There are too many cases (eg. brain injuries that change personality) that the single consciousness theory can’t account for.
2) Even if I agreed that there was a distinct difference in kind that represented a consistent person, I don’t think it’s relevant to the moral accounting of experiences. Ie. I don’t see why it matters whether experiences are “independent” or not. They’re real experiences of pain
1) I agree that the me today is different from the me yesterday, but I would say this is a qualitative difference, not a numerical difference. I am still the numerically same subject-of-experience as yesterday’s me, even though I may be qualitatively different in various physical and psychological ways from yesterday’s me. I also agree that the me today is different from the you today, but here I would say that the difference is not merely qualitative, but numerical too. You and I are numerically different subjects-of-experience, not just qualitatively different.
Moreover, I would agree that our qualitative differences are a matter of degrees and not of kind. I am not a chair and you a subject-of-experience. We are both embodied subjects-of-experience (i.e. of that kind), but we differ to various degrees: you might be taller or lighter-skinned, etc
I thus agreed with all your premises and have shown that they can be compatible with the existence of a subject-of-experience that extends through time. So I don’t quite see a convincing argument for the lack of the existence of a subject-of-experience that extends through time.
2) So here you’re granting me the existence of a subject-of-experience that extends through time, but you’re saying that it makes no moral difference whether one subject-of-experience suffers 5 minor headaches or 5 numerically different subjects-of-experience each experience 1 minor headache, and that therefore, we should just focus on the number of headaches.
Well, as I tried to explain in previous replies, when there is one subject-of-experience who extends through time, it is possible for him to experience what it’s like of going through 5 minor headaches, since after all, he experiences all 5 minor headaches (whether he remembers experiencing them or not). Moreover, it is ONLY the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches that can plausibly be worse or more painful than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache.
In contrast, when the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, each of the 5 people experiences only what it’s like to go through 1 minor headache. Moreover, the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-headache CANNOT plausibly be worse or more painful than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache.
Thus it matters whether the 5 headaches are experienced all by a single subject-of-experience (i.e. experienced together) or spread across five experientially independent subject-of-experiences (i.e. experienced independently). It matters because, again, ONLY when the 5 headaches are experienced together can there be the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches and ONLY that can plausibly be said to be worse or more painful than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache.
P.S. I have extensively edited my very first reply to you, so that it is more clear and detailed for first-time readers. I would recommend giving it a read if you have the time. Thanks.
1) I’d like to know what your definition of “subject-of-experience” is.
2) For this to be true, I believe you would need to posit something about “conscious experience” that is entirely different than everything else in the universe. If say factory A produces 15 widgets, factory B produces 20 widgets, and Factory C produces 15 widgets, I believe we’d agree that the number of widgets in A+C is greater than the number of widgets produced by B, no matter how independent the factories are. Do you disagree with this?
Similarly, I’d say if 15 neural impulses occur in brain A, 20 in brain B, and 15 in brain C, the # of neural impulses is greater than A+C than in B. Do you disagree with this?
Conscious experiences are a product of such neural chemical reactions. Do you disagree with this?
Given this, It seems odd to then postulate that even though all ingredients are the same and are additive between individuals, the conscious product is not. It seems arbitrary and unnecessary to explain anything, and there is no reason to believe it is true.
1) A subject of experience is just something which “enjoys” or has experience(s), whether that be certain visual experiences, pain experiences, emotional experiences, etc… In other words, a subject of experience is just something for whom there is a “what-it’s-like”. A building, a rock or a plant is not a subject of experience because it has no experience(s). That is, for example, why we don’t feel concerned when we step on grass: it doesn’t feel pain or feel anything. On the other hand, a cow is a subject-of-experience—it presumably has visual experiences and pain experience and all sorts of other experiences. Or more technically, a subject-of-experience (or multiple) may be realized by a cow’s physical system (i.e. brain). There would be a single subject-of-experience if all the experiences realized by the cow’s physical system are felt by a single subject. Of course, it is possible that within the cow’s physical system’s life span, multiple subjects-of-experience are realized. This would be the case if not all of the experiences realized by the cow’s physical system are felt by a single subject.
2) But when we say that 5 minor headaches is “worse” or “more painful” than a major pain, we are not simply making a “greater than, less than, or equal to” number comparison like 5 minor headaches is more headaches than 1 major headaches.
Clearly 5 minor headaches, whether they are spread across 5 persons or not, is more headaches than 1 major headache. But that is irrelevant. Because the claim you’re making is that 5 minor headaches, whether they are spread across 5 persons or not, is WORSE or MORE PAINFUL than 1 major headache. And this is where I disagree.
I am saying that for 5 minor headaches to be plausibly worse than a major headache, it must be the case that there is a what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, because only THAT KIND of experience can be plausibly worse or more painful than a major headache. But, for there to be THAT KIND of experience, it must be the case that all 5 minor headaches are felt by a single subject of experience and not spread among 5 experientially independent subjects of experience. For when the 5 minor headaches are spread, there is only 5 experientially independent what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-minor-headache, and no what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headache.
Sorry for the caps btw, I have no other way of placing emphasis.
Of course, it is possible that within the cow’s physical system’s life span, multiple subjects-of-experience are realized. This would be the case if not all of the experiences realized by the cow’s physical system are felt by a single subject.
That’s what I’m interested in a definition of. What makes it a “single subject”? How is this a binary term?
I am making a greater than/less than comparison. That comparison is with pain which results from the neural chemical reactions. There is more pain (more of these chemical reactions based experiences) in the 5 headaches than there is in the 1 whether or not they occur in a single subject. I don’t see any reason to treat this differently then the underlying chemical reactions.
You also write, “There is more pain (more of these chemical reactions based experiences) in the 5 headaches than there is in the 1 whether or not they occur in a single subject. I don’t see any reason to treat this differently then the underlying chemical reactions.”
Well, to me the reason is obvious: when we say that 5 minor pains in one person is greater than (i.e. worse than) a major pain in one person” we are using “greater than” in an EXPERIENTIAL sense. On the other hand, when we say that 10 neural impulses in one person is greater than 5 neural impulses in one person, we are using “greater than” in a QUANTITATIVE/NUMERICAL sense. These two comparisons are very different in their nature. The former is about the relative STRENGTH of the pains, the latter is about the relative QUANTITIES of neural impulses.
So just because 10 neural impulses is greater than 5 neural impulses in the numerical sense, whether the 10 impulses take place in 1 brain or 5 brains, that does NOT mean that 5 minor pains is greater than 1 major headache in the experiential sense, whether the 5 minor pains are realized in 1 brain or 5 brains.
This relates back to why I said it can be very misleading to represent pain comparisons in numerals like 5*2>5. Such representations do not distinguish between the two senses described above, and thus can easily lead one to conflate them.
Just to make sure we’re on the same page here, let me summarize where we’re at:
In choice situation 2 of my paper, I said that supposing that any person would rather endure 5 minor headaches of a certain sort than 1 major headache of a certain sort when put to the choice, then a case in which Al suffers 5 such minor headaches is morally worse than a case in which Emma suffers 1 such major headache. And the reason I gave for this is that Al’s 5 minor headaches is more painful (i.e. worse) than Emma’s major headache.
In choice situation 3, however, the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 different people: Al and four others. Here I claim that the case in which Emma suffers a major headache is morally worse than a case in which the 5 people each suffer 1 minor headache. And the reason I gave for this is that Emma’s major headache is more painful (i.e. worse) than each of the 5 people’s minor headache.
Against this, you claim that if the supposition from choice situation 2 carries over to choice situation 3 - the supposition that any person would rather endure 5 minor headaches than 1 major headache if put to the choice -, then the case in which the 5 people each suffer 1 minor headache is morally worse than Emma suffering a major headache. And your reason for saying this is that you think 5 minor headaches spread across the 5 people is more painful (i.e. worse) than Emma’s major headache.
THAT is what I took you to mean when you wrote: “Conditional on agreeing 5 minor headaches in one person is worse than 1 major headache in one person, I would feel exactly the same if it were spread out over 5 people.”
As a result, this whole time, I have been trying to explain why it is that 5 minor headaches spread across five people CANNOT be more painful (i.e. worse) than a major headache, even while the same minor 5 headaches all had by one person can (and would be, under the supposition).
Importantly, I never took myself to be disagreeing with you on whether 5 instances of a minor headache is more than 1 instance of a major headache. Clearly, 5 instances of a minor headache is more than 1 instance of a major headache, regardless of whether the 5 instances were all experienced by a single subject-of-experience or spread across 5.
I took our disagreement to be about whether 5 instances of a minor headache, when spread across 5 people, is more painful (i.e. worse) than an instance of a major headache.
My view is that only when the 5 headaches are all had by one subject-of-experience could they be more painful (i.e. worse) than a major headache. Moreover, my view is that it literally makes no sense to say (or that it is at least false to say, even if it made sense) that the 5 headaches, when spread across 5 people, is more painful (i.e. worse) than a major headache, under the supposition.
If I am right, then in choice situation 3, the morally worse case should be the case in which Emma suffers one major headache, not the case in which 5 people each suffer one minor headache.
In response to your question, “what makes a single subject “a single subject”, here is another stab: Within any given physical system that can realize subjects of experience (e.g. a cow’s brain), the subject-of-experience at t-1 (S1) is numerically identical to the subjective-of-experience at t-2 (S2) if and only if an experience at t-1 (E1) and an experience at t-2 (E2) are both felt by S1. That is S1 = S2 iff S1 feels E1 and E2.
That in conjunction with the definition I provided earlier is probably the best I can do to communicate what I take a subject-of-experience to be, and what makes a particular subject-of-experience the numerically same subject-of-experience over time.
To your first comment, I disagree. I think it’s the same thing. Experiences are the result of chemical reactions. Are you advocating a form of dualism where experience is separated from the physical reactions in the brain?
I think there is more total pain. I’m not counting the # of headaches. I’m talking about the total amount of pain.
Can you define S1?
We may not, as these discussions tend to go. I’m fine calling it.
I think we have to get closer to defining a subject of experience, (S1); I think I would need this to go forward. But here’s my position on the issue: I think moral personhood doesn’t make sense as a binary concept (the mind from a brain is different at different times, sometimes vastly different such as in the case of a major brain injury) The matter in the brain is also different over time (ship of Theseus). I don’t see a good reason to call these the same person in a moral sense in a way that two minds of two coexisting brains wouldn’t be. The consciousness experiences are different between at different times and different brains; I see this as a matter of degree of similarity.
I removed the comment about worrying that we might not reach a consensus because I worried that it might send you the wrong idea (i.e. that I don’t want to talk anymore). It’s been tiring I have to admit, but also enjoyable and helpful. Anyways, you clearly saw my comment before I removed it. But yeah, I’m good with talking on.
I agree that experiences are the result of chemical reactions, however the nature of the relations “X being experientially worse than Y” and “X being greater in number than Y” are relevantly different. Someone by the name of “kbog” recently read my very first reply to you (the updated edition) and raised basically the same concern as you have here, and I think I have responded to him pretty aptly. So if you don’t mind, can you read my discussion with him:
I would have answered you here, but I’m honestly pretty drained from replying to kbog, so I hope you can understand. Let me know what you think.
Regarding defining S1, I don’t think I can do better than to say that S1 is a thing that has, or is capable of having, experience(s). I add the phrase ‘or is capable of having’ this time because it has just occurred to me that when I am in dreamless sleep, I have no experiences whatsoever, yet I’d like to think that I am still around—i.e. that the particular subject-of-experience that I am is still around. However, it’s also possible that a subject-of-experience exists only when it is experiencing something. If that is true, then the subject-of-experience that I am is going out of and coming into existence several times a night. That’s spooky, but perhaps true.
Anyways, I can’t seem to figure out why you need any better of a definition of a subject-of-experience than that. I feel like my definition sufficiently distinguishes it from other kinds of things. Moreover, I have provided you with a criteria for identity over time. Shouldn’t this be enough?
You write, “I think moral personhood doesn’t make sense as a binary concept (the mind from a brain is different at different times, sometimes vastly different such as in the case of a major brain injury) The matter in the brain is also different over time (ship of Theseus).”
I agree with all of this, but I would insist those NEED NOT BE numerical differences, just qualitative differences. A mind can be very qualitatively different (e.g. big personality change) from one moment to the next, but that does not necessarily mean that it is a numerically different mind. Likewise, a brain can be very qualitative different (e.g. big change in shape) from one moment to the next, but that does not necessarily mean that it is a numerically different brain.
You then write, “I don’t see a good reason to call these the same person in a moral sense in a way that two minds of two coexisting brains wouldn’t be.”
Well, if a particular mind is the numerically same mind before and after a big qualitative change (e.g., due to a brain injury), then clearly there is reason to call it the same mind/person in a way that two minds of two coexisting brains wouldn’t be. After all, it’s the numerically same mind, whereas two minds of two coexisting brains are clearly two numerically different minds.
You might agree that there is a literal reason to call it the same mind, but deny that there is a moral reason that wouldn’t be true of two minds of two coexisting brains. But I think the literal reason constitutes or provides the moral reason: if a mind is numerically the same mind before and after a big qualitative change (e.g. big personality change), then that means whatever experiences are had by that mind before and after the change are HAD BY THAT NUMERICALLY SAME MIND. So if that particular mind suffered a headache before the radical change and then suffered a headache after the change, it is THAT PARTICULAR MIND THAT SUFFERS BOTH. That is enough reason to also call that mind the same mind in a moral sense that wouldn’t also be true of two numerically different minds of two coexisting brains.
I didn’t quite understand the sentences after that.
To be honest, I just don’t get why you would feel the same if the 5 minor headaches were spread across 5 people
Because I don’t have any reason to feel different. Imagine if I said, “5 headaches among tall people would be better than 5 headaches among short people.” And then you said, “no, it’s the same either way. Height is irrelevant.” And then I replied, “I just don’t get why you would feel the same if the people are tall or short!” In that case, clearly I wouldn’t be giving you a response that carries any weight. If you want to show that the cases are different in a relevant way, then you need to spell it out. In the absence of reasons to say that there is a difference, we assume by default that they’re similar.
Now, it’s clearly the case that the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is not worse than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache. Given what I said in the previous paragraph, therefore, there is nothing present that could be worse than the what-it’s-like-to-go-through-a-major-headache in the case where the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people. Therefore, 5 minor headaches, spread across 5 people, cannot be (and thus is not) worse (experientially speaking) than one major headache.
The third sentence does not follow from the second. This is like saying “there is nothing present in a Toyota Corolla that could make it weigh more than a Ford F-150, therefore five Toyota Corollas cannot weigh more than a Ford F-150.” Just because there is no one element in a set of events that is worse than a bad thing doesn’t mean that the set of events is not worse than the bad thing. There are lots of events where badness increases with composition, even without using aggregative utilitarian logic. E.g.: it is okay to have sex with Michelle, and it is okay to marry Tiffany, but it is not okay to do both.
1) “Because I don’t have any reason to feel different.”
Ok, well, that comes as a surprise to me. In any case, I hope after reading my first reply to Michael_S, you at least sort of see how it could be possible that someone like I would feel surprised by that, even if you don’t agree with my reasoning. In other words, I hope you at least sort of see how it could be possible that someone who would clearly agree with you that, say, 5 minor headaches all had by 1 tall person is experientially just as bad as 5 minor headaches all had by 1 short person, might still disagree with you that 5 minor headaches all had by 1 person is experientially just as bad as 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people.
2) “If you want to show that the cases are different in a relevant way, then you need to spell it out. In the absence of reasons to say that there is a difference, we assume by default that they’re similar.”
That’s what my first reply to Michael_S, in effect, aimed to do.
3) “The third sentence does not follow from the second. This is like saying “there is nothing present in a Toyota Corolla that could make it weigh more than a Ford F-150, therefore five Toyota Corollas cannot weigh more than a Ford F-150.” Just because there is no one element in a set of events that is worse than a bad thing doesn’t mean that the set of events is not worse than the bad thing. There are lots of events where badness increases with composition, even without using aggregative utilitarian logic. E.g.: it is okay to have sex with Michelle, and it is okay to marry Tiffany, but it is not okay to do both.”
Your reductio-by-analogy (I made that phrase up) doesn’t work, because your analogy is relevantly different. In your analogy, we are dealing with the relation of _ being heavier than _, whereas I’m dealing with the relation of _ being experientially worse than _. These relations are very different in nature: one is quantitative in nature, the other is experiential in nature. You might insist that this is not a relevant difference, but I think it is when one really slows down to think about exactly what is it that makes 5 minor headaches experientially worse than a major headache.
As I mentioned, the answer is the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches. That is, the what-it’s-like of going through one minor headache, then another (sometime later), then another, then another, then another. It’s THAT SPECIFIC WHAT-IT’S-LIKE that can plausibly be experientially worse than a major headache. It’s THAT SPECIFIC WHAT-IT’S-LIKE that can plausibly be “shittier” or “sucker” than a major headache.
However, when the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, there is just 5 what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache, and no single what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches. Why? Because each of the minor headaches in this situation would be felt by a numerically non-identical subject-of-experience (i.e. 5 people), and numerically different subjects-of-experience cannot have their experiences “linked”. Otherwise, they would not be numerically different.
Therefore, only 5 minor headaches, when all had by one subject-of-experience (i.e. one person) can they be experientially worse than one major headache. And therefore, 5 minor headaches, when all had by one person, is experientially worse than 5 minor headaches, spread across 5 people.
I think what I just said above shows clearly how the relation of _ being experientially worse than _ is impacted by whether the 5 minor headaches are all had by one person or spread across 5 different people. Whereas the relation of _ being heavier than _ is not similarly affected. So that is the relevant difference.
I hope you can really consider what I’m saying here. Thanks.
I hope you at least sort of see how it could be possible that someone who would clearly agree with you that, say, 5 minor headaches all had by 1 tall person is experientially just as bad as 5 minor headaches all had by 1 short person, might still disagree with you that 5 minor headaches all had by 1 person is experientially just as bad as 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people.
Well I can see how it is possible for someone to believe that. I just don’t think it is a justified position, and if you did embrace it you would have a lot of problems. For instance, it commits you to believing that it doesn’t matter how many times you are tortured if your memory is wiped each time. Because you will never have the experience of being tortured a second time.
In your analogy, we are dealing with the relation of _ being heavier than _, whereas I’m dealing with the relation of _ being experientially worse than _. These relations are very different in nature: one is quantitative in nature, the other is experiential in nature.
There are two rooms, painted bright orange inside. One person goes into the first room for five minutes, five people go into the second for one minute. If we define orange-perception as the phenomenon of one conscious mind’s perception of the color orange, the amount of orange-perception for the group is the same as the amount of orange-perception for the one person.
Something being experiential doesn’t imply that it is not quantitative. We can clearly quantify experiences in many ways, e.g. I had two dreams, I was awake for thirty seconds, etc. Or me and my friends each saw one bird, and so on.
However, when the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, there is just 5 what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache, and no single what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches.
Yes, but the question here is whether 5 what-it’s-lies-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is 5x worse than 1 minor headache. We can believe this moral claim without believing that the phenomenon of 5 separate headaches is phenomenally equivalent to 1 experience of 5 headaches. There are lots of cases where A is morally equivalent to B even though A and B are physically or phenomenally different.
1) “Well I can see how it is possible for someone to believe that. I just don’t think it is a justified position, and if you did embrace it you would have a lot of problems. For instance, it commits you to believing that it doesn’t matter how many times you are tortured if your memory is wiped each time. Because you will never have the experience of being tortured a second time.”
I disagree. I was precisely trying to guard against such thoughts by enriching my first reply to Michael_S with a case of forgetfulness. I wrote, “Now, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might have long forgotten about the first minor headache because, say, it happened so long ago. So, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might not have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches EVEN THOUGH we in fact have experienced what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches.” (I added the caps here for emphasis)
The point I was trying to make in that passage is that if one person (i.e. one subject-of-experience) experienced all 5 minor headaches, then whether he remembers them or not, the fact of the matter is that HE felt all of them, and insofar as he has, he is experientially worse off than someone who only felt a major headache. Of course, if you asked him at the end of his 5th minor headache whether HE thinks he’s had it worse than someone with a major headache, he may say “no” because, say, he has forgotten about some of the minor headaches he’s had. But that does NOT MEAN that, IN FACT, he did not have it worse. After all, the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is experentially worse than one major headache, and HE has experienced the former, whether he remembers it or not.
So, if my memory is wiped each time after getting tortured, of course it still matters how many times I’m tortured. Because I WILL have the experience of being tortured a second time, whether or not I VIEW that experience as such.
2) “There are two rooms, painted bright orange inside. One person goes into the first room for five minutes, five people go into the second for one minute. If we define orange-perception as the phenomenon of one conscious mind’s perception of the color orange, the amount of orange-perception for the group is the same as the amount of orange-perception for the one person.
Something being experiential doesn’t imply that it is not quantitative. We can clearly quantify experiences in many ways, e.g. I had two dreams, I was awake for thirty seconds, etc. Or me and my friends each saw one bird, and so on.”
My point wasn’t that we can’t quantify experience in various ways, but that relations of an experiential nature, like the relation of X being experientially worse than Y, behave in relevantly different ways from relations of a quantitative—maybe ‘non-experiential’ might have been a better word—nature, like the relation of X being heavier than Y. As I tried to explain, the “experientially-worse-than” relation is impacted by whether the X (e.g. 5 minor headaches) are spread across 5 people or all had by one person, whereas the “heavier-than” relation is not impacted by whether X (e.g. 100 tons) are spread across 5 objects or true of 1 object.
3) “Yes, but the question here is whether 5 what-it’s-lies-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is 5x worse than 1 minor headache. We can believe this moral claim without believing that the phenomenon of 5 separate headaches is phenomenally equivalent to 1 experience of 5 headaches. There are lots of cases where A is morally equivalent to B even though A and B are physically or phenomenally different.”
The moral question here is whether a case in which 5 minor headaches are all had by one person is morally equivalent (i.e. morally just as bad) as a case in which 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people. You think it is, and I think it isn’t. Instead, I think the former case is morally worse than the latter case.
And the ONLY reason why I think this is because I think 5 headaches all had by one person is experientially worse than 5 headaches spread across 5 people. As I said before, I think experience is the only morally relevant factor.
Since I don’t think anything other than experience matters, I would deny the existence of cases in which A and B are morally just as bad/good where A and B differ phenomenally.
I disagree. I was precisely trying to guard against such thoughts by enriching my first reply to Michael_S with a case of forgetfulness. I wrote, “Now, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might have long forgotten about the first minor headache because, say, it happened so long ago. So, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might not have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches EVEN THOUGH we in fact have experienced what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches.” (I added the caps here for emphasis)
But I don’t have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to be 5 people going through 5 headaches either. So I’m missing out on just as much as the amnesiac. In both cases people’s perceptions are inaccurate.
My point wasn’t that we can’t quantify experience in various ways, but that relations of an experiential nature, like the relation of X being experientially worse than Y, behave in relevantly different ways from relations of a quantitative—maybe ‘non-experiential’ might have been a better word—nature, like the relation of X being heavier than Y. As I tried to explain, the “experientially-worse-than” relation is impacted by whether the X (e.g. 5 minor headaches) are spread across 5 people or all had by one person, whereas the “heavier-than” relation is not impacted by whether X (e.g. 100 tons) are spread across 5 objects or true of 1 object
Of course you can define a relation to have that property, but merely defining it that way gives us no reason to think that it should be the focus of our moral concern.
If I were to define a relation to have the property of being the target of our moral concern, it wouldn’t be impacted by how it were spread across multiple people.
As I said before, I think experience is the only morally relevant factor.
Well, so do I. The point is that the mere fact that 5 headaches in one person is worse for one person doesn’t necessarily imply that it is worse overall for 5 headaches among 5 people.
1) “But I don’t have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to be 5 people going through 5 headaches either. So I’m missing out on just as much as the amnesiac. In both cases people’s perceptions are inaccurate.”
I don’t quite understand how this is a response to what I said, so let me retrace some things:
You first claimed that if I believed that 5 minor headaches all had by one person is experientially worse than 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people, then I would be committed to “believing that it doesn’t matter how many times you are tortured if your memory is wiped each time. Because you will never have the experience of being tortured a second time” and this is a problem.
I replied that it does matter how many times I get tortured because even if my memory is wiped each time, it is still ME (as opposed to a numerically different subject-of-experience, e.g. you) who would experience torture again and again. If my memory is wiped, I will incorrectly VIEW each additional episode of torture as the first one I’ve ever experienced, but it would not BE the first one I’ve ever experienced. I would still experience what-it’s-like-of-going-through-x-number-of-torture-episodes even if after each episode, my memory was wiped. Since it’s the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-x-number-of-torture-episodes (and not my memory of it) that is experientially worse than something else, and since X is morally worse than Y when X is experientially worse (i.e. involves more pain) than Y, therefore, it does matter how many times I’m tortured irrespective of my memory.
Now, the fact that you said that I “will never have the experience of being tortured a second time” suggests that you think that memory-continuity is necessary to being the numerically same subject-of-experience (i.e. person). If this were true, then every time a person’s memory is wiped, a numerically different person comes into existence and so no person would experience what-it’s-like-of-going-through-2-torture-episodes if a memory wipe happens after each torture episode. But I don’t think memory-continuity is necessary to being the numerically same subject-of-experience. I think a subject-of-experience at time t1 (call this subject “S1″) and a subject-of-experience at some later time t2 (call this subject “S2”) are numerically identical (though perhaps qualitatively different) just in case an experience at t1 (call this experience E1) and an experience at t2 (call this experience E2) are both felt by S1. In other words, I think S1 = S2 iff E1 and E2 are both felt by S1. S1 may have forgotten about E1 by t2 (due to a memory wipe), but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t S1 who also felt E2.
In a nutshell, memory (and thus how accurate we appreciate our past pains) is not morally relevant since it does not prevent a person from actually experiencing what-it’s-like-of-going-through-multiple-pains, and it is this latter thing that is morally relevant. So I don’t quite see the point of your latest reply.
2) “Of course you can define a relation to have that property, but merely defining it that way gives us no reason to think that it should be the focus of our moral concern.
If I were to define a relation to have the property of being the target of our moral concern, it wouldn’t be impacted by how it were spread across multiple people.”
I am not simply defining a relation here. We both agree that experience is morally relevant and that therefore pain is morally bad, and that therefore an outcome that involves more pain than another outcome is morally worse than the latter outcome. That is, we agree X is morally worse than Y iff X involves more pain than Y. But how are we to understand phrase ‘involves more pain than’? I understand it as meaning “is experientially worse than”, which is why I ultimately think that 5 minor headaches all had by one person is morally worse than 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people. You seem to agree with me that the former is experientially worse than the latter, yet you deny that the former is morally worse than the latter. Thus, you have to offer another plausible account of the phrase ‘involves more pain than’ on which 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves just as much pain as 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people. IMPORTANTLY, this account has to be one according to which 5 minor headaches all had by one person can involve more pain than 1 major headache and not merely in an experientially worse sense. Can you offer such an account?
I mean, how can 5 minor headaches all had by one person involve more pain than 1 major headache if not in an experientially worse sense? You might try to use math to help illustrate your point of view. You might say, well suppose each minor headache represents a pain of a magnitude of 2, and the major headache represents a pain of a magnitude of 6. You might further clarify that the 2 doesn’t just signify the INTENSITY of the minor pain since how shitty a pain episode is doesn’t just depend on its intensity but also on its duration. Thus, you might clarify that the 2 represents the overall shitness of the pain—the disutility of it, so to speak. Next, you might say that insofar as there are 5 such minor headaches, they represent 10 disutility, and 10 is bigger than 6. Therefore 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves more pain than a major headache.
But then I would ask you: what is the reality underpinning the number 10? Is it not some overall shittiness that is experientially worse than the overall shittiness from experiencing one major headache? Is it not the overall shittiness of what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches? If it is, then we haven’t departed from my “is experientially worse than” interpretation of ‘involves more pain than’. If it isn’t, then what is it?
To see the problem even more clearly, consider when the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people. Here again, you will say that the 5 minor headaches represent 10 disutility and 10 is greater than 6, therefore 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people involve more pain than one major headache. This conclusion is easy to arrive at when one just focuses on the math: 2 x 5 = 10 and 10 > 6. But we must not forget to ask ourselves what the “10” might signify in reality. Is it meant to signify an overall shittiness that is shittier than the experience of 1 major headache? Ok, but where in reality is this overall shittiness? I certainly don’t see it. I don’t see the presence of this overall shittiness because there is no experience of it.
(Thus, I find using math to show that 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people involves more pain than 1 major headache is very misleading: yes, mathematically, you can easily portray it. But, at bottom, the ’10′ maps onto nothing in reality.)
So in conclusion, I don’t see any other plausible interpretation of ‘involves more pain than’ than “is experientially worse than”. If that is the case, then not only is it the case that I haven’t arbitrarily defined a relation, but it’s also the case that this relation is the only plausible morally relevant relation.
3) “Well, so do I. The point is that the mere fact that 5 headaches in one person is worse for one person doesn’t necessarily imply that it is worse overall for 5 headaches among 5 people.”
We need to distinguish between experientially worse and morally worse. You agree that 5 headaches in one person is experientially worse than 5 headaches spread across 5 people, yet you insist that that doesn’t mean the former is morally worse than the latter. Well, again, this requires you to show that there is another plausible interpretation of ‘involves more pain than’ on which the former involves just as much pain as the latter.
Also, I should note that I was too hasty when I said that I think experience is the ONLY morally relevant factor. Actually, I also think who suffers is a morally relevant factor, but that doesn’t affect our discussion here.
In a nutshell, memory (and thus how accurate we appreciate our past pains) is not morally relevant since it does not prevent a person from actually experiencing what-it’s-like-of-going-through-multiple-pains, and it is this latter thing that is morally relevant. So I don’t quite see the point of your latest reply.
The point is that the subject has the same experiences as that of having one headache five times, and therefore has the same experiences as five headaches among five people. There isn’t any morally relevant difference between these experiences, as the mere fact that the latter happens to be split among five people isn’t morally relevant. So we should suppose that they are morally similar.
But how are we to understand phrase ‘involves more pain than’?
You think it should be “involves more pain for one person than”. But I think it should be “involves more pain total”, or in other words I take your metric, evaluate each person separately with your metric, and add up the resulting numbers.
Thus, you have to offer another plausible account of the phrase ‘involves more pain than’ on which 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves just as much pain as 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people.
It’s just plain old cardinal utility: the sum of the amount of pain experienced by each person.
IMPORTANTLY, this account has to be one according to which 5 minor headaches all had by one person can involve more pain than 1 major headache and not merely in an experientially worse sense
Why?
I mean, how can 5 minor headaches all had by one person involve more pain than 1 major headache if not in an experientially worse sense?
In the exact same way that you think they can.
then we haven’t departed from my “is experientially worse than” interpretation of ‘involves more pain than’.
Correct, we haven’t, because we’re not yet doing any interpersonal comparisons.
But we must not forget to ask ourselves what the “10” might signify in reality. Is it meant to signify an overall shittiness that is shittier than the experience of 1 major headache? Ok, but where in reality is this overall shittiness?
It is distributed − 20% of it is in each of the 5 people who are in pain.
1) “The point is that the subject has the same experiences as that of having one headache five times, and therefore has the same experiences as five headaches among five people.”
One subject-of-experience having one headache five times = the experience of what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-headaches. (Note that the symbol is an equal sign in case it’s hard to see.)
Five headaches among five people = 5 experientially independent experiences of what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-headache. (Note the 5 experiences are experientially independent of each other because each is felt by a numerically different subject-of-experience, rather than all by one subject-of-experience.)
The single subject-of-experience does not “therefore has the same experiences as five headaches among five people.”
2) “You think it should be “involves more pain for one person than”. But I think it should be “involves more pain total”, or in other words I take your metric, evaluate each person separately with your metric, and add up the resulting numbers.”
Ok, and after adding up the numbers, what does the final resulting number refer to in reality? And in what sense does the referent (i.e. the thing referred to) involve more pain than a major headache?
Consider the case in which the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, and suppose each minor headache has an overall shittiness score of 2 and a major headache has an overall shittiness score of 6. If I asked you what ‘2’ refers to, you’d easily answer the shitty feeling characteristic of what it’s like to go through a minor-headache. And you would say something analogous for ‘6’ if I asked you what it refers to.
You then add up the five ’2’s and get 10. Ok, now, what does the ’10′ refer to? You cannot answer the shitty feeling characteristic of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches, for this what-it’s-like is not present since no individual feels all 5 headaches. The only what-it’s-like that is present are 5 experientially independent what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache. Ok so what does ’10′ refer to? 5 of these shitty feelings? Ok, and in what sense do 5 of these shitty feelings involve more pain than 1 major headache? Clearly not in an experiential sense for only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is plausibly experientially worse than a major headache. So in what sense does the referent involve more pain than a major headache?
THIS IS THE CRUX OF OUR DISAGREEMENT. I CANNOT SEE HOW 5 what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache involves more pain than 1 major headache. YES, mathematically, you can show me ’10 > 6′ all day long, but I don’t see any reality onto which it maps!
3) “It’s just plain old cardinal utility: the sum of the amount of pain experienced by each person.”
Yes, but I don’t see how that “sum of pain” can involve more pain than 1 major headache because what that “sum of pain” is, ultimately speaking, are 5 what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-pain, and NOT 1 what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-pains.
4) “Why?”
Because ultimately you’ll need an account of ‘involves more pain than’ on which 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people can involve more pain than 1 major headache. And in that situation, it is clearly the case that the 5 minor headaches are not experientially worse than the 1 major headache (for only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches can plausibly be experientially worse than 1 major headache).
My point was just that you’ll need an account of ‘involves more pain than’ that can make sense of how 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache can involve more pain than 1 major headache, for my account (i.e. “is experientially worse than”) certainly cannot make sense of it.
5) “It is distributed − 20% of it is in each of the 5 people who are in pain.”
But when it’s distributed, you won’t have an overall shittiness that is shittier than the experience of 1 major headache, at least not when we understand “is shittier than” as meaning “is experientially worse than”.
For 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache are not experientially worse than 1 major headache: only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches can plausibly be experientially worse than 1 major headache.
Your task, again, is to provide a different account of ‘involves more pain than’ or ‘shittier than’ on which, somehow, 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache can somehow involve more pain than 1 major headache.
Five headaches among five people = 5 experientially independent experiences of what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-headache. (Note the 5 experiences are experientially independent of each other because each is felt by a numerically different subject-of-experience, rather than all by one subject-of-experience.)
The fact that they are separate doesn’t mean that their content is any different from the experience of the one person. Certainly, the amount of pain they involve isn’t any different.
Ok, and after adding up the numbers, what does the final resulting number refer to in reality?
The total amount of suffering. Or, the total amount of well-being.
And in what sense does the referent (i.e. the thing referred to) involve more pain than a major headache?
Because are multiple people and each of them has their own pain.
You then add up the five ’2’s and get 10. Ok, now, what does the ’10′ refer to?
The amount of pain experienced among five people.
Ok, and in what sense do 5 of these shitty feelings involve more pain than 1 major headache?
In the sense that each of them involves more than 1⁄5 as much pain, and the total pain among 5 feelings is the sum of pain in each of them.
Clearly not in an experiential sense for only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is plausibly experientially worse than a major headache
Sure it’s experiential, all 10 of the pain is experienced. It’s just not experienced by the same person.
I CANNOT SEE HOW 5 what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache involves more pain than 1 major headache
In the same way that there are more sheep apparitions among five people, each of them dreaming of two sheep, than for one person who is dreaming of six sheep.
I don’t see how that “sum of pain” can involve more pain than 1 major headache because what that “sum of pain” is, ultimately speaking, are 5 what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-pain, and NOT 1 what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-pains.
But as far as cardinal utility is concerned, both quantities involve the same amount of pain. That’s just what you get from the definition of cardinal utility.
Because ultimately you’ll need an account of ‘involves more pain than’ on which 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people can involve more pain than 1 major headache. And in that situation, it is clearly the case that the 5 minor headaches are not experientially worse than the 1 major headache
That just means I need a different account of “involves more pain than” (which I have) when interpersonal comparisons are being made, but it doesn’t mean that my account can’t be the same as your account when there is only one person.
But when it’s distributed, you won’t have an overall shittiness that is shittier than the experience of 1 major headache, at least not when we understand “is shittier than” as meaning “is experientially worse than”.
But as I have been telling you this entire time, I don’t follow your definition of “experientially worse than”.
Your task, again, is to provide a different account of ‘involves more pain than’ or ‘shittier than’ on which, somehow, 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache can somehow involve more pain than 1 major headache.
Well, I already did. But it’s really just the same as what utilitarians have been writing for centuries so it’s not like I had to provide it.
The fact that they are separate doesn’t mean that their content is any different from the experience of the one person. Certainly, the amount of pain they involve isn’t any different.
Yes, each of the 5 minor headaches spread among the 5 people are phenomenally or qualitatively the same as each of the 5 minor headaches of the one person. The fact that the headaches are spread does not mean that any of them, in themselves, feel any different from any of the 5 minor headaches of the one person. A minor headache feels like a minor headache, irrespective of who has it.
Now, each such minor headache constitutes a certain amount of pain, so 5 such minor headaches constitutes five such pain contents, and in THAT sense, five times as much pain. Moreover, since there are 5 such minor headaches in each case (i.e. the 1 person case and the 5 people case), therefore, each case involves the same amount of pain. This is so even if 5 minor headaches all had by one person (i.e. the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches) is experientially different from 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people (5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache).
Analogously, a visual experience of the color orange constitutes a certain amount of orange-ish feel, so 5 such visual experiences constitutes 5 such orange-ish feels, and in THAT sense, 5 times as much orange-ish feel. If one person experienced 5 such visual experiences one right after another and we recorded these experiences on an “experience recorder” and did the same with 5 such visual experiences spread among 5 people (where they each have their visual experience one right after the other), and then we played back both recordings, the playbacks viewed from the point of view of the universe would be identical: if each visual experience was 1 minute long, then both playbacks would be 5 minutes long of the same content. In this straight forward sense, 5 such visual experiences had by one person involves just as much orange-ish feel as 5 such visual experiences spread among 5 people. This is so even if the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-such-visual-experiences is not experientially the same as 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-such-visual-experience.
Right? I assume this is what you have in mind.
I thus understand your alternative account or sense of ‘involves more pain than’. I can see how according to it, 5 minor headaches had by 1 person involves the same amount of pain as 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people.
But again, consider 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people vs 1 major headache. Here you claim that the 5 minor headaches involves more pain than 1 major headache, and I asked you to explain in what sense. Why did I do this? Because it is clearest here how your account fails to achieve what you think it can achieve.
So let’s carefully think about this for a second. Each minor headache constitutes a certain amount of pain—the amount of pain determined how shitty it feels in absolute terms. The same is true of the major headache. Since a major headache feels a lot shittier in absolute terms, we might use ‘6’ to represent the amount of pain it constitutes, and a ‘2’ to represent the amount of pain a single minor headache constitutes. IMPORTANTLY, both numbers—and the amount of pain they each represent—are determined by how shitty the major headache and the minor headache respectively FEEL. (Note: As I mentioned in an earlier reply, how shitty a pain episode feels is a function of both its intensity and duration).
Ok. Now, we have 5 experientially independent minor headaches. We have 5 such pain contents, and in THAT sense, 5 times as much pain. The duration of the playback would be 5 times as long compared to the playback of 1 minor headache.) Ok, but do we have something that we can appropriately call 10. Well, these numbers are meant to represent the amount of pain there is and we just said that the amount of pain is determined by how shitty something feels.
The question then is: Do 5 experientially independent minor headaches some how collectively constitute an amount of pain that feels like a 10. Clearly they don’t because only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches can plausibly feel like a 10, and 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is not experientially the same as 1 what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches.
You might reply that 5 experientially minor headaches collectively constitute a 10 in that each minor headache constitutes an amount of pain represented by 2 and there are 5 such headaches. In other words, the duration of the playback is 5 times as long. There is, in that sense, 5 times the amount of pain, which is 10.
Yes, there is 5 times the amount of pain in THAT sense, which is why I would agree that 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves just as much pain as 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people in THAT sense. BUT, notice that only the number 2 is experientially determined. The 5 is not. The 5 is the number of instances of the minor headaches. As a result, the number 10 is not experientially determined. So, the number 10 simply signifies a certain amount of pain (2) repeated 5 times. It does NOT signify an amount of pain that feels like a 10.
You might not disagree. You might ask, what is the problem here? The problem is that while you can compare a 10 and a 10 that are both determined in this non-purely experiential way, which in effect is what you do to get the result that 5 minor headaches had by one person involves just as much pain as 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people, you CANNOT compare a 10 and a 6 when the 10 is determined in this non-purely experiential way and the 6 is determined in a purely experiential way. For when the numbers are determined in different ways, they signify different things, and are thus incommensurate.
I can make the same point by talking in terms of pain, rather than in terms of numbers. When you say that 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves the same amount of pain as 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people, you are USING ‘amount of pain’ in a non-purely experiential sense. The amount of pain, so used, is determined by a certain amount of pain used in a purely experiential sense (i.e. an amount of pain determined by how shitty a minor headache feels) x how many minor headaches there are. While you can compare two amounts of pains, so used, with each other, you cannot compare an amount of pain, so used, with a certain amount of pain used in a purely experiential sense (i.e. an amount of pain determined by how shitty a major headache feels).
Of course, how many minor headaches there are will affect the amount of pain there is (used in a purely experiential sense) when the headaches all occur in one person. For 5 minor headaches all had by one person results in the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, which feels shittier (i.e. is experentially worse) than a major headache and thus constitutes more pain than a major headache. Thus, when I say 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves an amount of pain that is more than the amount of pain of a major headache, I am using both “amount of pain” in a purely experiential sense. I am comparing apples to apples. But when you say that 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people involves an amount of pain that is more than the amount of pain of a major headache, you are using the former “amount of pain” in a non-purely experiential sense (the one I described in the previous paragraph) and the latter “amount of pain” in a purely experiential sense. You are comparing apples to oranges.
In this response, I’ve tried very hard to make clear why it is that even though your account of ‘involves more pain than’ can work for 5 minor headaches all had by one person vs 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people (and get the result you want: i.e. that the amount of pain in each case is the same), your account cannot work for 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people vs 1 major headache. Thus, your account cannot achieve what you think it can achieve.
I worry that I haven’t been as clear as I wish to be (despite my efforts), so if any part of it comes off unclear, I hope you can be as charitable as you can and make an effort to understand what I’m saying, even if you disagree with it.
I just wanted to say I thought this comment did a good job explaining the basis behind your moral intuitions, which I had not really felt a strong motivation for before now. I still don’t find it particularly compelling myself, but I can understand why others could find it important.
Overall I find this post confusing though, since the framing seems to be “Effective Altruism is making an intellectual mistake” whereas you just actually seem to have a different set of moral intuitions from those involved in EA, which are largely incompatible with effective altruism as it currently practiced. Whilst you could describe moral differences as intellectual mistakes, this does not seem to be a standard or especially helpful usage.
The comments etc. then just seem to have mostly been people explaining why they don’t find your moral intuition that ‘non-purely experientially determined’ and ‘purely experientially determined’ amounts of pain cannot be compared compelling. Since we seem to have reached a point where there seems to be a fundamental disagreement about considered moral values, it does not seem that attempting to change each others minds is very fruitful.
I think I would have found this post more conceptually clear if it had been structured:
EA conclusions actually require an additional moral assumption/axiom—and so if you don’t agree with this assumption then you should not obviously follow EA advice.
(Optionally) Why you find the moral assumption unconvincing/unlikely
(Extra Optionally) Tentative suggestions for what should be done in the absence of the assumption.
Where throughout the assumption is the commensuratabilitly of ‘non-purely experientially determined’ and ‘purely experientially determined’ experience.
In general I am not very sure what you had in mind as the ideal outcome of this post. I’m surprised if you thought most EAs agreed with you on your moral intuition, since so much of EA is predicated on its converse (as is much of established consequential thinking etc.). But equally I am not sure what value we can especially bring to you if you feel very sure in your conviction that the assumption does not hold.
(Note I also made this as a top level comment so it would be less buried, so it might make more sense to respond (if you would like to) there)
Just because two things are different doesn’t mean they are incommensurate. It is easy to compare apples and oranges: for instance, the orange is healthier than the apple, the orange is heavier than the apple, the apple is tastier than the orange. You also compare two different things, by saying that a minor headache is less painful than torture, for instance. You think that different people’s experiences are incommensurable, but I don’t see why.
In fact, there is good reason to think that any two values are necessarily commensurable. For if something has value to an agent, then it must provide motivation to them should they be perceiving, thinking and acting correctly, for that is basically what value is. If something (e.g. an additional person’s suffering) does not provide additional motivation, then either I’m not responding appropriately to it or it’s not a value. And if my motivation is to follow the axioms of expected utility theory then it must be a function over possible outcomes where my motivation for each outcome is a single number. And if my motivation for an outcome is a single number, then it must take the different values associated with that outcome and combine them into one figure denoting how valuable I find it overall.
Just because two things are different doesn’t mean they are incommensurate.
But I didn’t say that. As long as two different things share certain aspects/dimensions (e.g. the aspect of weight, the aspect of nutrition, etc...), then of course they can be compared on those dimensions (e.g. the weight of an orange is more than the weight of an apple, i.e., an orange weighs more than an apple).
So I don’t deny that two different things that share many aspects/dimensions may be compared in many ways. But that’s not the problem.
The problem is that when you say that the amount of pain involved in 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people is more than the amount of pain involved in 1 major headache (i.e., 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people involves more pain than 1 major headache), you are in effect saying something like the WEIGHT of an orange is more than the NUTRITION of an apple. This is because the former “amount of pain” is used in a non-purely experiential sense while the latter “amount of pain” is used in a purely experiential sense. When I said you are comparing apples to oranges, THIS is what I meant.
you are in effect saying something like the WEIGHT of an orange is more than the NUTRITION of an apple.
No, I am effectively saying that the weight of five oranges is more than the weight of one orange.
This is because the former “amount of pain” is used in a non-purely experiential sense while the latter “amount of pain” is used in a purely experiential sense
That is wrong. In both cases I evaluate the quality of the experience multiplied by the number of subjects. It’s the same aspect for both cases. You’re just confused by the fact that, in one of the cases but not the other, the resulting quantity happens to be the same as the number provided by your “purely experiential sense”. If I said “this apple weighs 100 grams, and this orange weighs 200 grams,” you wouldn’t tell me that I’m making a false comparison merely because both the apple and the orange happen to have 100 calories. There is nothing philosophically noteworthy here, you have just stumbled upon the fact that any number multiplied by one is still one.
As if that isn’t decisive enough, imagine for instance that it was a comparison between two sufferers and five, rather than between one and five. Then you would obviously have no argument at all, since my evaluation of the two people’s suffering would obviously not be in the “purely experiential sense” that you talk about. So clearly I am right whenever more than one person is involved. And it would be strange for utilitarianism to be right in all those cases, but not when there was just one person. So it must be right all the time.
You’ll need to read to the very end of this reply before my argument seems complete.
In both cases I evaluate the quality of the experience multiplied by the number of subjects. It’s the same aspect for both cases. You’re just confused by the fact that, in one of the cases but not the other, the resulting quantity happens to be the same as the number provided by your “purely experiential sense”.
Case 1: 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people
Case 2: 1 major headache had by one person
Yes, I understand that in each case, you are multiplying a certain amount of pain (determined solely by how badly something feels) by the number of instances to get a total amount of pain (determined via this multiplication), and then you are comparing the total amount of pain in each case.
For example, in Case 1, you are multiplying the amount of pain of a minor headache (determined solely by how badly a minor headache feels) by the number of instances to get a total amount of pain (determined via this multiplication). Say each minor headache feels like a 2, then 2 x 5 = 10. Call this 10 “10A”.
Similarly, in Case 2, you are multiplying the amount of pain of a major headache (determined solely by how badly a major headache feels) by the number of instances, in this case just 1, to get a total amount of pain (determined via this multiplication). Say the major headache feels like a 6, then 6 x 1 = 6. Call this latter 6 “6A”.
You then compare the 10A with the 6A. Moreover, since the amounts of pain represented by 10A and 6A are both gotten by multiplying one dimension (i.e. amount of pain, determined purely experientially) by another dimension (instances), you claim that you are comparing things along the same dimension, namely, A. But this is problematic.
To see the problem, consider
Case 3: 5 minor headaches all had by 1 person.
Here, like in Case 1, we can multiply the amount of pain of a minor headache (determined purely experientially) by the number of instances to get a total amount of pain (determined via this multiplication). 2 x 5 = 10. This 10 is the 10A sort.
OR, unlike in Case 1, we can determine the final amount of pain not by multiplying those things, but instead in the same way we determine the amount of pain of a single minor headache, namely, by considering how badly the 5 minor headaches feels. We can consider how badly the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches feels. It feels like a 10, just as a minor headache feels like a 2, and a major headache feels like a 6. Call these 10E, 2E and 6E respectively. The ‘E’ signifies that the numbers were determined purely experientially.
Ok. I’m sure you already understand all that. Now here’s the problem.
You insist that there is no problem with comparing 10A and 6A. After all, they are both determined in the same way: multiplying an experience by its instances.
I am saying there is a problem with that. The problem is that saying 10A is more than 6A makes no sense. Why not? Because, importantly, what goes into determining the 10A and 6A are 2E and 6E respectively: 2E x 5 = 10A. 6E x 1 = 6A. So what?
Well think about it. 2E x 5 instances is really just 2E, 2E, 2E, 2E, 2E.
And 6E x 1 instance is really just 6E.
So when you assert 10A is more than 6A, you are really just asserting that
(2E, 2E, 2E, 2E, 2E) is more than 6E.
But then notice that, at bottom, you are still working with the dimension of experience (E) - the dimension of how badly something feels. The problem for you, then, is that the only intelligible form of comparison on this dimension is the “is experientially more bad than” (i.e. is experientially worse than) comparison.
(Of course, there is also the dimension of instances, and an intelligible form of comparison on this dimension is the “is more in instances than” comparison. For example, you can say 5 minor headaches is more in instances than 1 major headache (i.e. 5 > 1). But obviously, the comparison we care about is not merely a comparison of instances.)
Analogously, when you are working with the dimension of weight—the dimension of how much something weighs -, the only intelligible form of comparison is “weighs more than”.
Now, you keep insisting that there is an analogy between
1) your way of comparing the amounts of pain of various pain episodes (e.g. 5 minor headaches vs 1 major headache), and
2) how we normally compare the weights of various things (e.g. 5 small oranges vs 1 big orange).
For example, you say,
No, I am effectively saying that the weight of five oranges is more than the weight of one orange.
So let me explain why they are DIS-analogous. Consider the following example:
Case 1: Five small oranges, 2lbs each. (Just like 5 minor headaches, each feeling like a 2).
Case 2: One big orange, 6lbs. (Just like 1 major headache that feels like a 6).
Now, just as the 2 of a minor headache is determined by how badly it feels, the 2 of a small orange is determined by how much it weighs. So just as we write, 2E x 5 = 10A, we can similarly write 2W x 5 = 10A. And just as we write, 6E x 1 = 6A, we can similarly write 6W x 1 = 6A.
Now, if you assert that (the total amount of weight represented by) 10A is more than 6A, I would have NO problem with that. Why not? Because the comparison “is more than” still occurs on the dimension of weight (W). You are saying 5 small oranges WEIGHS more than 1 big orange. The comparison thus occurs on the SAME dimension that was used to determine the number 2 and 6 (numbers that in turn determined 10A and 6A): A small orange was determined to be 2 by how much it WEIGHED. Likewise with the big orange. And when you say 10A is more than 6A, the comparison is still made on that dimension.
By contrast, when you assert that (the total amount of pain represented by) 10A is more than 6A, the “is more than” does not occur on the dimension of experience anymore. It does not occur on the dimension of how badly something feels anymore. You are not saying that 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people is EXPERIENTIALLY WORSE than 1 major headache had by 1 person. You are saying something else. In other words, the comparison does NOT occur on the same dimension that was used to determine the number 2 and 6 (numbers that in turn determined 10A and 6A): A minor headache was determined to be 2 by how EXPERIENTIALLY BAD IT FELT. Likewise with the major headache. Yet, when you say 10A is more than 6A, you are not making a comparison on that dimension anymore.
So I hope you see how your way of comparing the amounts of pain between various pain episodes is disanalogous to how we normally compare the weights between various things.
Now, just as the dimension of weight (i.e. how much something weighs) and the dimension of instances (i.e. how many instances there are) do not combine to form some substantive third dimension on which to compare 5 small oranges with a big orange, the dimension of experience (i.e. how badly something feels) and the dimension of instances do not combine to form some substantive third dimension on which to compare 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people and 1 major headache had by one person. At best, they combine to form a trivial third dimension consisting in their collection/conjunction, on which one can intelligibly compare, say, 32 minor headaches with 23 minor headaches, irrespective of how the 32 and 23 minor headaches are spread. This trivial dimension is the dimension of “how many instances (i.e. how much) of a certain pain there is”. On this dimension, 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people cannot be compared with a MAJOR headache, because they are different pains, but 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people can be compared with 5 minor headaches all had by 1 person. Moreover, the result of such a comparison would be that they are the same on this dimension (as I allowed in an earlier reply). But this is a small victory given that this dimension won’t allow any comparisons between differential pains (e.g. 5 minor headaches and a major headache).
But then notice that, at bottom, you are still working with the dimension of experience (E) - the dimension of how badly something feels. The problem for you, then, is that the only intelligible form of comparison on this dimension is the “is experientially more bad than” (i.e. is experientially worse than) comparison
What I am working with “at bottom” is irrelevant here, because I’m not making a comparison with it. There are lots of things we compare that involve different properties “at bottom”.
But obviously, the comparison we care about is not merely a comparison of instances
And obviously the comparison we care about is not merely a comparison how bad it feels for any given person.
The comparison thus occurs on the SAME dimension
No it doesn’t. That is, if I were to apply the same logic to oranges that you do to people, I would say that there is Mono-Orange-Weight, defined as the most weight that is ever present in one of a group of oranges, and Multi-Orange-Weight, defined as the total weight that is present in a group of oranges, and insist that you cannot compare one to the other, so one orange weighs the same as five oranges.
Of course that would be nonsense, as it’s true that you can compare orange weights. But you can see how your argument fails. Because this is all you are doing; you are inventing a distinction between “purely experiential” and “non-purely experiential” badness and insisting that you cannot compare one against the other by obfuscating the difference between applying either metric to a single entity.
A minor headache was determined to be 2 by how EXPERIENTIALLY BAD IT FELT
But that isn’t how I determined that one person with a minor headache has 2 units of pain total.
Yet, when you say 10A is more than 6A, you are not making a comparison on that dimension anymore
You are right, I am comparing one person’s “non purely experiential” headache to five people’s “non purely experiential” headaches.
So I hope you see how your way of comparing the amounts of pain between various pain episodes is disanalogous to how we normally compare the weights between various things.
It’s not reasonable to expect me to change my mind when you’re repeating the exact same argument that you gave before while ignoring the second argument I gave in my comment.
hey kbog, I didn’t anticipate you would respond so quickly… I was editting my reply while you replied… Sorry about that. Anyways, I’m going to spend the next few days slowly re-reading and sitting on your past few replies in an all-out effort to understand your point of view. I hope you can do the same with just my latest reply (which I’ve editted). I think it needs to be read to the end for the full argument to come through.
Also, just to be clear, my goal here isn’t to change your mind. My goal is just to get closer to the truth as cheesy as that might sound. If I’m the one in error, I’d be happy to admit it as soon as I realize it. Hopefully a few days of dwelling will help. Cheers.
just as the dimension of weight (i.e. how much something weighs) and the dimension of instances (i.e. how many instances there are) do not combine to form some substantive third dimension on which to compare 5 small oranges with a big orange,
What?
It’s the dimension of weight, where the weight of 5 oranges can be more than the weight of one big orange. Weight is still weight when you are weighing multiple things together. If you don’t believe me, put 5 oranges on a scale and tell me what you see. The prior part of your comment doesn’t have anything to change this.
Sorry for taking awhile to get back to you – life got in the way… Fortunately, the additional time made me realize that I was the one who was confused as I now see very clearly the utilitarian sense of “involves more pain than” that you have been in favor of.
Where this leaves us is with two senses of “involves more pain than” and with the question of which of the two senses is the one that really matters. In this reply, I outline the two senses and then argue for why the sense that I have been in favor of is the one that really matters.
The two senses:
Suppose, for purposes of illustration, that a person who experiences 5 minor toothaches is experientially just as badly off as someone who experiences a major toothache. This supposition, of course, makes use of my sense of “involves more pain than” – the sense that analyzes “involves more pain than” as “is experientially worse than”. This sense compares two what-it’s-likes (e.g., the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-toothaches vs the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-toothache) and compares them with respect to their what-it’s-like-ness – their feel. On this sense, 5 minor toothaches all had by one person involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person in that the former is experientially just as bad as the latter.
On your sense (though not on mine), if these 5 minor toothaches were spread across 5 people, they would still involve the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person. This is because having 1 major toothache is experientially just as bad as having 5 minor toothaches (i.e. using my sense), which entitles one to claim that the 1 major toothache is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches, since they give rise to distinct what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially just as bad. At this point, it’s helpful to stipulate that one minor toothache = one base unit of pain. That is, let’s suppose that the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-one-minor-toothache is experientially as bad as any of the least experientially bad experience(s) possible. Now, since there are in effect 5 base units of pain in both cases, therefore the cases involve the same amount of pain (in your sense). It is irrelevant that the 5 base units of pain are spread among 5 people in one case. This is because it is irrelevant how those 5 base units of pain feel when experienced together since we are not comparing the cases with respect to their what-it’s-like-ness – their feel. Rather, we are comparing the cases with respect to their quantity of the base unit of pain.
Which is the sense that really matters?
I believe the sense I am in favor of is the one that really matters, and that this becomes clear when we remind ourselves why we take pain to matter in the first place.
We take pain to matter because of its negative felt character – because of how it feels. I argue that we should favor my sense of “involves more pain than” because it fully respects this fact, whereas the sense you’re in favor of goes against the spirit of this fact.
According to your sense, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as one major toothache had by one person. But doesn’t this clearly go against the spirit of the fact that pain matters solely because of how it feels? None of the 5 people feel anything remotely bad. There is simply no experience of anything remotely bad on their side of the equation. They each feel a very mild pain – unpleasant enough to be perceived to be experientially bad, but that’s it. That’s the worst what-it’s-like on their side of the equation. Yet, a bundle of 5 of these mild what-it’s-likes somehow involve the same amount of pain as one major toothache. That can only be acceptable if the felt character of the major toothache (and of pain in general) is not as important to you as the sheer quantity of very mild pains (i.e. of base units of pain). But this is against the spirit of why pain matters.
The 5000 pains are only worse if 5000 minor pains experienced by one person is equivalent to one excruciating pain. If so, then 5000 minor pains for 5000 people being equivalent to one excruciating pain doesn’t go against the badness of how things feel; at least it doesn’t seem counterintuitive to me.
Maybe you think that no amount of minor pains can ever be equally important as one excruciating pain. But that’s a question of how we evaluate and represent an individual’s well-being, not a question of interpersonal comparison and aggregation.
Hey kbog, if you don’t mind, let’s ignore my example with the 5000 pains because I think my argument can more clearly be made in terms of my toothache example since I have already laid a foundation for it. Let me restate that foundation and then state my argument in terms of my toothache example. Thanks for bearing with me.
The foundation:
Suppose 5 minor toothaches had by one person is experientially just as bad as 1 major toothache had by one person.
Given the supposition, you would claim: 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person.
Let me explain what I think is your reasoning step by step:
P1) 5 minor toothaches had by one person and 1 major toothache had by one person give rise to two different what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially JUST AS BAD. (By above supposition)
(The two different what-it’s-likes are: the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-toothaches and the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-major-toothache.)
P2) Therefore, we are entitled to say that 5 minor toothaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P1)
P3) 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is 5 minor toothaches, just as 5 minor toothaches had by one person is 5 minor toothaches, so there is the same quantity of minor toothaches (or same quantity of base units of pain) in both cases. (Self-evident)
P4) Therefore, we are entitled to say that 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches had by one person. (By P4)
P5) Therefore, we are entitled to claim that 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P2 and P4)
C) Therefore, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P5)
As the illustrated reasoning shows, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person (i.e. C) only if 5 minor toothaches had by ONE person is equivalent to 1 major toothache (i.e. P2). You agree with this.
Moreover, as the illustrated reasoning also shows, the reason why 5 minor toothaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache (i.e. P2) is because they give rise to two different what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially just as bad (i.e. P1). I presume you agree with this too. Call this reason “Reason E”, E for “experientially just as bad”)
Furthermore, as the illustrated reasoning shows, the reason why 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothache had by one person is DIFFERENT from the reason for why 5 minor headaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. That is, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches had by one person (i.e. P4) because they share the same quantity of base units of pain, namely 5, irrespective of how the 5 base units of pain are spread (i.e. P3), and NOT because they give rise to two what-it’s-likes that are experientially just as bad (as they clearly don’t). Call this reason (i.e. P3) “Reason S”, S for “same quantity of base units of pains”
Argument:
So there are these two different types of reasons underlying your equivalence claims (I will use “=” to signify “is equivalent to”:
5 MiTs/5 people = 5 MiTs/1 person = 1 MaT/1 person
Now, never mind the transitivity problem that Reasons S and E create for your reasoning. Indeed, that’s not the problem I want to raise for your sense of “involves more pain.”
The problem with your sense of “involves more pain” is that it admits of Reason S as a basis for saying X involves more pain than Y. But Reason S, unlike Reason E, is against the spirit of why we take pain to matter. We take pain to matter because of the badness of how it feels, as you rightly claim. But Reason S doesn’t give a crap about how bad the pains on the two sides of the equation FEEL; it doesn’t care that 5 MiTs/1 person constitutes a pain that feels a whole lot worse than any anything on the other side of the equation. It just cares about how many base units of pain there are on each side. And, obviously, more base units of pain does not mean there is experientially worse pain precisely because the base units of pain can be spread out among many different people.
Maybe you think that no amount of minor pains can ever be equally important as one excruciating pain.
This an interesting question. Perhaps the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-an-INFINITE-number-of-a-very-mild-sort-of-pain cannot be experientially worse than the what-it’s-like-of-suffering-one-instance-of-third-degree-burns. If so, then I would think that 1 third-degree burn/1 person is morally worse than infinite mild pains/1 person. In any case, I don’t think what I think here is relevant to my argument against your utilitarian sense of “involves more pain than”.
the reason why 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothache had by one person is DIFFERENT from the reason for why 5 minor headaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person.
No, both equivalencies are justified by the fact that they involve the same amount of base units of pain.
But Reason S doesn’t give a crap about how bad the pains on the two sides of the equation FEEL
Sure it does. The presence of pain is equivalent to feeling bad. Feeling bad is precisely what is at stake here, and all that I care about.
In any case, I don’t think what I think here is relevant to my argument against your utilitarian sense of “involves more pain than”.
Yes, that’s what I meant when I said “that’s a question of how we evaluate and represent an individual’s well-being, not a question of interpersonal comparison and aggregation.”
the reason why 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothache had by one person is DIFFERENT from the reason for why 5 minor headaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person.
No, both equivalencies are justified by the fact that they involve the same amount of base units of pain.
So you’re saying that just as 5 MiTs/5 people is equivalent to 5 MiTs/1 person because both sides involve the same amount of base units of pain, 5 MiTs/1 person is equivalent to 1 MaT/1 person because both sides involve the same amount of base units of pain (and not because both sides give rise to what-it’s-likes that are experientially just as bad).
My question to you then is this: On what basis are you able to say that 1 MaT/1 person involves 5 base units of pain?
But Reason S doesn’t give a crap about how bad the pains on the two sides of the equation FEEL
Sure it does. The presence of pain is equivalent to feeling bad. Feeling bad is precisely what is at stake here, and all that I care about.
Reason S cares about the amount of base units of pain there are because pain feels bad, but in my opinion, that doesn’t sufficiently show that it cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels. It doesn’t sufficiently show that it cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels because 5 base units of pain all experienced by one person feels a whole heck of a lot worse than anything felt when 5 base units of pain are spread among 5 people, yet Reason S completely ignores this difference. If Reason S truly cared about pain-qua-how-it-feels, it cannot ignore this difference.
I understand where you’re coming from though. You hold that Reason S cares about the quantity of base units of pain precisely because pain feels bad, and that this fact alone sufficiently shows that Reason S is in harmony with the fact that we take pain to matter because of how it feels (i.e. that Reason S cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels).
However, given what I just said, I think this fact alone is too weak to show that Reason S is in harmony with the fact that we take pain to matter because of how it feels. So I believe my objection stands.
On what basis are you able to say that 1 MaT/1 person involves 5 base units of pain?
Because you told me that it’s the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches and you also told me that each minor toothache is 1 base unit of pain.
5 base units of pain all experienced by one person feels a whole heck of a lot worse than anything felt when 5 base units of pain are spread among 5 people, yet Reason S completely ignores this difference. If Reason S truly cared about pain-qua-how-it-feels, it cannot ignore this difference.
If you mean that it feels worse to any given person involved, yes it ignores the difference, but that’s clearly the point, so I don’t know what you’re doing here other than merely restating it and saying “I don’t agree.”
On the other hand, you do not care how many people are in pain, and you do not care how much pain someone experiences so long as there is someone else who is in more pain, so if anyone’s got to figure out whether or not they “care” enough it’s you.
Have we hit bedrock?
You’ve pretty much been repeating yourself for the past several weeks, so, sure.
Because you told me that it’s the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches and you also told me that each minor toothache is 1 base unit of pain.
Where in supposition or the line of reasoning that I laid out earlier (i.e. P1) through to P5)) did I say that 1 major headache involves the same amount of pain as 5 minor toothaches?
I attributed that line of reasoning to you because I thought that was how you would get to C) from the supposition that 5 minor toothaches had by one person is experientially just as bad as 1 major toothache had by one person.
But you then denied that that line of reasoning represents your line of reasoning. Specifically, you denied that P1) is the basis for asserting P2). When I asked you what is your basis for P2), you assert that I told you that 1 major headache involves the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches. But where did I say this?
In any case, it would certainly help if you described your actual step by step reasoning from the supposition to C), since, apparently, I got it wrong.
If you mean that it feels worse to any given person involved, yes it ignores the difference, but that’s clearly the point, so I don’t know what you’re doing here other than merely restating it and saying “I don’t agree.”
I’m not merely restating the fact that Reason S ignores this difference. I am restating it as part of a further argument against your sense of “involves more pain than” or “involves the same amount of pain as”. The argument in essence goes:
P1) Your sense relies on Reason S
P2) Reason S does not care about pain-qua-how-it-feels (because it ignores the above stated difference).
P3) We take pain to matter because of how it feels.
C) Therefore, your sense is not in harmony with why pain matters (or at least why we take pain to matter).
I had to restate that Reason S ignores this difference as my support for P2, so it was not merely stated.
On the other hand, you do not care how many people are in pain, and you do not care how much pain someone experiences so long as there is someone else who is in more pain, so if anyone’s got to figure out whether or not they “care” enough it’s you.
Both accusations are problematic.
The first accusation is not entirely true. I don’t care about how many people are in pain only in situations where I have to choose between helping, say, Amy and Susie or just Bob (i.e. situations where a person in the minority party does not overlap with anyone in the majority party). However, I would care about how many people are in pain in situations where I have to choose between helping, say, Amy and Susie or just Amy (i.e. situations where the minority party is a mere subset of the majority party). This is due to the strict pareto principle which would make Amy and Susie each suffering morally worse than just Amy suffering, but would not make Amy and Susie suffering morally worse than Bob suffering. I don’t want to get into this at this point because it’s not very relevant to our discussion. Suffice it to say that it’s not entirely true that I don’t care about how many people are in pain.
The second accusation is plain false. As I made clear in my response to Objection 2 in my post, I think who suffers matters. As a result, if I could either save one person from suffering some pain or another person from suffering a slightly less pain, I would give each person a chance of being saved in proportion to how much each has to suffer. This is what I think I should do. Ironically, your second accusation against me is precisely true of what you stand for.
You’ve pretty much been repeating yourself for the past several weeks, so, sure.
In my past few replies, I have:
1) Outlined in explicit terms a line of reasoning that got from the supposition to C), which I attributed to you.
2) Highlighted that that line of reasoning appealed to Reason S.
3) On that basis, argued that your sense of “involves the same amount of pain as” goes against the spirit of why pain matters.
If that comes across to you as “just repeating myself for the past several weeks”, then I can only think that you aren’t putting enough effort into trying to understand what I’m saying.
Hi Michael,
Thanks very much for your response.
UPDATE (ADDED ON MAR 16):
I have shortened the original reply as it was a bit repetitive and made improvements in its clarity. However, it is still not optimal. Thus I have written a new reply for first-time readers to better appreciate my position. You can find the somewhat improved original reply at the end of this new reply (if interested):
To be honest, I just don’t get why you would feel the same if the 5 minor headaches were spread across 5 people. Supposing that 5 minor headaches in one person is (experientially) worse than 1 major headache in one person (as you request), consider WHAT MAKES IT THE CASE that the single person who suffers 5 minor headaches is worse off than a person who suffers just 1 major headache, other things being equal.
Well, imagine that we were this person who suffers 5 minor headaches. We suffer one minor headache one day, suffer another minor headache sometime after that, then another after that, etc. By the end of our 5th minor headache, we will have experienced what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches. After all, we went through 5 minor headaches! Note that the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-headaches consists simply in the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-the-first-minor-headache then the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-the-second-minor-headache then the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-the-third-minor-headache, etc. Importantly, the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-headaches is NOT whatever we experience right after having our 5th headache (e.g. exhaustion that might set in after going through many headaches or some super painful headache that is the “synthesis” of the intensity of the past 5 minor headaches). It is NOT a singular/continuous feeling like the feeling we have when we’re experiencing a normal pain episode. It is simply this: the what-it’s-like of going through one minor headache, then another (sometime later), then another, then another, then another. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Now, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might have long forgotten about the first minor headache because, say, it happened so long ago. So, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might not have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches even though we in fact have experienced what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches. As a result, if someone asked us whether we’ve been through more pain due to our minor headaches or more pain through a major headache that, say, we recently experienced, we would likely incorrectly answer the latter.
But, if we did have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches, say, because we experienced all 5 minor headaches rather recently, then there will be a clear sense to us that going through them was (experientially) worse than the major headache. The 5 minor headaches would each be “fresh in our mind”, and thus the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches would be “fresh in our mind”. And with that what-it’s-like fresh in mind, it seems clear to us that it caused us more pain than the major headache did.
Now, a headache being “fresh in our mind” does not mean that the headache needs to be so fresh that it is qualitatively the same as experiencing a real headache. Being fresh in our mind just means we have an accurate appreciation/idea of what it felt like, just as we have some accurate idea of what our favorite dish tastes like.
Because we have appreciations of our past pains (to varying degrees of accuracy), we sometimes compare them and have a clear sense that one set of pains is worse than another. But it is not the comparison and the clear sense we have of one set of pain being worse than another that ultimately makes one set of pains worse than another. Rather, it is the other way around. It is the what-it’s-like-of-having-5-minor-headaches that is worse – more painful – than the what-it’s-like-of-having-a-major-headache. And if we have an accurate appreciation of both what-it’s-likes, then we will conclude the same. But, when we don’t, then our own conclusions could be wrong, like in the example provided earlier of a forgotten minor headache.
So, at the end of the day, what makes a person who has 5 minor headaches worse off than a person who has 1 major headache is the fact that he experienced what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches.
But, in the case where the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, there is no longer the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches because each of the 5 headaches is experienced by a different person. As a result, the only what-it’s-like present is the what-it’s-like-of-experiencing-one-minor-headache. Five different people each experience this what-it’s-like, but no one experiences what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches. Moreover, the what-it’s-like of each of the 5 people cannot be linked to form the what-it’s-like-of-experiencing-5-minor headaches because the 5 people are experientially independent beings.
Now, it’s clearly the case that the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is not worse than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache. Given what I said in the previous paragraph, therefore, there is nothing present that could be worse than the what-it’s-like-to-go-through-a-major-headache in the case where the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people. Therefore, 5 minor headaches, spread across 5 people, cannot be (and thus is not) worse (experientially speaking) than one major headache.
Therefore, “conditional on agreeing 5 minor headaches in one person is worse than 1 major headache in one person, … [one should not] feel exactly the same if it were spread out over 5 people.”!
Finally, since 5 headaches, spread across 5 people, is not EXPERIENTIALLY worse than another person’s single major headache, therefore the case in which Emma would suffer a major headache is MORALLY worse than the case in which 5 different people would each suffer a minor headache. (If you disagree with this, please see Objection 1.2 and my response to it) Therefore what I said in choice situation 3 holds.
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The somewhat improved though sub-optimal original reply:
To be honest, I just don’t get why you would feel the same if the pains were spread out over 5 people. I mean, when the 5 minor headaches occur in a single person, then FOR that person, there is a very clear sense how the 5 headaches are worse to endure than 1 major headache. But once the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 different people, that clear sense is lost because each of the 5 people only experiences at most 1 minor headache. In each experiencing only 1 minor headache, NOT ONE of the 5 people experience something worse than a major headache (e.g., what Emma would go through). So none of them would individually be worse off than Emma. Are you really ready to say that the 5 of them together are worse off than Emma? But in what sense? Certainly not in any experiential sense (since none of them individually experiences anything worse than a major headache and they are experientially independent of each other). But then I don’t see what other sense there are that matters.
If a small headache is worth 2 points of disutility and a large headache is worth 5, the total amount of pain is worse because 2*5>5. It’s a pretty straightforward total utilitarian interpretation.I find it irrelevant whether there’s one person who’s worse off; the total amount of pain is larger.
I’ll also note that I find the concept of personhood to be incoherent in itself, so it really shouldn’t matter at all whether it’s the same “person”. But while I think an incoherent personhood concept is sufficient for saying there’s no difference if it’s spread out over 5 people, I don’t think it’s necessary. Simple total utilitarianism gets you there.
I assume we agree that we determine the points of disutility of the minor and major headache by how they each feel to someone. Since the major headache hurts more, it’s worth more points (5 in this case).
But, were a single person to suffer all 5 minor headaches, he would end up having felt what it is like to go through 5 headaches—a feeling that would make him say things like “Going through those 5 minor headaches is worse/more painful than a major headache” or “There was more/greater/larger pain in going through those 5 minor headaches than a major headache”.
We find these statements intelligible. But that is because we’re at a point in life where we too have felt what it is like to go through multiple minor pains, and we too can consider (i.e. hold before our mind) a major pain in isolation, and compare these feelings: the what-it’s-like of going through multiple minor pains vs the what-it’s-like of going through a major pain.
But once the situation is that the 5 minor headache are spread across 5 people, there is no longer the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, just 5 independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache. As a result, in this situation, when you say “the total amount of pain [involved in 5 minor headaches] is worse [one major headache]”, or that “the total amount of pain [involved in 5 minor headaches] is larger [than one major headache], there is nothing to support their intelligibility.
So, I honestly don’t understand these statements. Sure, you can use numbers to show that 10 > 5, but there is no reality that that maps on to (i.e. describes). I worry that representing pain in numbers is extremely misleading in this way.
Regarding personhood, I think my position just requires me to be committed to there being a single subject-of-experience (is that what you meant by person?) who extends through time to the extent that it can be the subject of more than one pain episode. I must admit I know very little about the topic of personhood. On that note, any further comments that help your position and question mine would be helpful. Thanks.
I think this is confusing means of estimation with actual utils. You can estimate that 5 headaches are worse than one by asking someone to compare five headaches vs. one. You could also produce an estimate by just asking someone who has received one small headache and one large headache whether they would rather receive 5 more small headaches or one more large headache. But there’s no reason you can’t apply these estimates more broadly. There’s real pain behind the estimates that can be added up.
I agree with the first half of what you said, but I don’t agree that “there’s no reason you can’t apply these estimates more broadly (e.g. to a situation where 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 persons).
Sure, a person who has felt only one minor headache and one major headache can say “If put to the choice, I think I’d rather receive another major headache than 5 more minor headaches”, but he says this as a result of imagining roughly what it would be like for him to go through 5 of this sort of minor headache and comparing that to what it was like for him to go through the one major headache.
Importantly, what is supporting the intelligibility of his statement is STILL the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, except that this time (unlike in my previous reply), the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is imagined rather than actual.
But in the situation where the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, there isn’t a what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, imagined or actual, to support the intelligibility of the claim that 5 minor headaches (spread across 5 people) are worse or more painful than a major headache. What there is are five independent what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache, since
1) the 5 people are obviously experientially independent of each other (i.e. each of them can only experience their own pain and no one else’s), and
2) each of the 5 people experience just one minor headache.
But these five independent what-it’s-likes can’t support the intelligibility of the above claim. None of these what-it-likes are individually worse or more painful than the major headache. And they cannot collectively be worse or more painful than the major headache because they are experientially independent of each other.
The what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is importantly different from five independent what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache, and only the former can support the intelligibility of a claim like 5 minor headaches are worse than a major headache. But since the former what-it’s-like can only occur in a single subject-of-experience, that means that, more specifically, the former what-it’s-like can only support the intelligibility of a claim like 5 minor headaches, all had by one person, is worse than a major headache. It cannot support a claim like 5 minor headaches, spread across 5 people, are worse than a major headache.
It’s the same 5 headaches. It doesn’t matter if you’re imagining one person going through it on five days or imagine five different people going through it on one day. You can still imagine 5 headaches. You can imagine what it would be like to say live the lives of 5 different people for one day with and without a minor headache. Just as you can imagine living the life of one person for 5 days with and without a headache. The connection to an individual is arbitrary and unnecessary.
Now this goes into the meaningless of personhood as a concept, but what would even count as the individual in your view? For simplicity, let’s say 2 modest headaches in one person are worse than one major headache. What if between the two headaches, the person gets a major brain injury and their personality is completely altered (as has happened in real life). Let’s say they also have no memory of their former self. Are they no longer the same person? Under your view, is it no longer possible to say that the two modest headaches are worse than the major headache? If it still is, why is it possible after this radical change in personality with no memory continuity but impossible between two different people?
If I’m understanding you correctly, you essentially deny that there is a metaphysical difference (i.e. a REAL difference) between
A. One subject-of-experience experiencing 5 headaches over 5 days (say, one headache per day), and
B. Five independent subjects-of-experience each experiencing 1 headache over 5 days (say, each subject has their 1 headache on a different day, such that on any given day, only one of them has a headache).
And you deny this BECAUSE you think that, in case A for example, there simply is no fact of the matter as to how many subjects-of-experience there were over those 5 days IN THE FIRST PLACE, and NOT because you think one subject-of-experience going through 5 headaches IS IDENTICAL to five independent subjects-of-experience each going through 1 headache.
Also, you are not simply saying that we don’t KNOW how many subjects of experience there were over those 5 days in case A, but that there actually isn’t an answer to how many there were. The indeterminate-ness is “built into the world” so to speak, and not just existing in our state of mind.
You therefore think it is arbitrary to say that one subject-of-experience experienced all 5 headaches over the 5 days or that 5 subjects-of-experience each experienced 1 headache over the 5 days.
But importantly, IF there is a fact of the matter as to how many subjects-of-experience there is in any given time period, you would NOT continue to think that there is no metaphysical difference between case A and B. And this is because you agree that one subject-of-experience going through 5 headaches is not identical to five independent subjects-of-experience each going through 1 headache. You would say, “Obviously they are not identical. The problem, however, is that—in case A, for example—there simply is no fact of the matter as to how many subjects-of-experience there were over those 5 days IN THE FIRST PLACE so saying that one subject-of-experience experienced all 5 headaches is arbitrary.”
I hope that was an accurate portrayal of your view.
Let us then try to build some consensus from the ground up:
First, there is surely experience. That there is experience, whether it be pain experience or color experience or whatever, is the most obvious truth there is. I assume you don’t deny that. Ok, so we agree that
1) there is experience.
Second, well, each experience is clearly SOMEONE’S experience—it is experience FOR SOMEONE. Suppose there is a pain experience—a headache. Someone IN PARTICULAR experiences that headache. Let’s suppose you’re not experiencing it and that I am. Then I am that particular someone. I assume you don’t deny any of that. Ok, so we agree that
2) there is not just experience, but that for every experience, there is also a particular subject-of-experience who experiences it, whether or not a particular subject-of-experience can also extend through time and be the subject of multiple experiences.
That’s all the consensus building I want to do right now.
Now, let me report something about myself (for the sake of argument, just assume it’s true): I felt 5 headaches over the past 5 days. Here (just as in case A) you would say that there is no fact of the matter whether one subject-of-experience felt those 5 headaches or five different subjects-of-experience felt those 5 headaches, even though the “I” in “I just felt 5 headaches” makes it SOUND LIKE there was only one subject-of-experience.
If I then say that, “no no, there was just one subject-of-experience who felt those 5 headaches”, your question (and challenge) to me is what is my criteria for saying that there was just one subject-of-experience and not five. More specifically, you ask whether memory-continuity and personality-continuity are necessary conditions for being the same subject-of-experience over the 5 days, “same” in the sense of being numerically identical and not qualitatively identical.
Here’s my answer:
I’m sure philosophers have tried to come up with various criteria. Presumably that’s what philosophers engaged in the field called “personal identity” in part do, though I don’t know much about that field. Anyways, presumably they are all trying to come up with a criteria that would neatly accommodate all our intuitive judgements in specific (perhaps imagined) cases concerning personal identity (e.g., split brain cases). A criteria that succeeded in doing that would presumably be regarded as the “true” or “correct” criteria. In other words, the ONLY way philosophers have for testing their criteria is presumably to see if their criteria would yield results that accord with our intuitions. Moreover, if the “correct” criteria is found, philosophers are presumably going to say that it is correct not merely in the sense that it accurately describes the implicit/sub-conscious assumptions that we hold about personal identity which have led us to have the intuitions we have. Indeed, presumably, they are going to say that the criteria is correct in the stronger sense that it accurately describes the conditions under which a subject-of-experience IN REALITY is the same numerical subject over time. Insofar as they would say this, philosophers are assuming that our intuitive judgements represent the truth (i.e. the way things actually are). For only if the intuitions represented the truth would it be the case that a criteria that accommodated all of them would thereby be a criteria that described reality.
But then the question is, do our intuitions represent the truth? I don’t know, and so even if I were able to give you a criteria that accommodated all our intuitions and that, according to this criteria, there was only one subject-of-experience who experienced all 5 headaches over those 5 days, I would not have, in any convincing way, demonstrated that there was in fact only one subject-of-experience who experienced all 5 headaches over those 5 days, instead of 5 independent subjects-of-experience who each experienced 1 headache. For you can always ask what reasons I have for taking our intuitions to represent the truth. I don’t think there is a convincing answer. So I don’t think presenting you with criteria will ultimately satisfy you, at least I don’t think it should.
Of course, that’s not to say that we wouldn’t know what would have to be the case for it to be true that one subject-of-experience experienced all 5 headaches over the 5 days: That would be true just in case one subject-of experience IN FACT experienced all 5 headaches over the 5 days. We just don’t know if that is the case. And I have just argued above that providing a criteria that accords with all our intuitions won’t really help us to know if that is the case either.
So, what reason can I give for believing that there really was just one subject-of-experience who experienced all 5 headaches over those 5 days? Well, what reason can YOU give for saying that there isn’t a fact of the matter as to whether there was one subject-of-experience who experienced all 5 headaches over those 5 days or give independent subjects-of-experience who each experienced only 1 headache over those 5 days?
Are we at a standstill? We would be if neither of us can provide reasons for our views. Your view attributes a fundamental indeterminate-ness to the world itself, and I wonder what reason you have for such a view.
I have a reason for believing my view. But this reply is already very long, so before I describe my reason, I would just like some confirmation that we’re on the same page. Thanks.
P.S. I’ll just add (as a more direct response to the first paragraph of your response): Yes, I can imagine 5 headaches by either imagining myself in the shoes of one person for 5 days or imagining myself in the shoes of 5 different people for one day each. In both cases, I imagine 5 headaches. True. BUT. When I imagine myself in the shoes of 5 different people for one day each, what is going on is that one subject-of-experience (i.e. me), takes on the independent what-it’s-likes (i.e. experiences) associated with the 5 different people, and IN DOING SO, LINKS THESE what-it’s-likes—which in reality are experientially independent of each other—TOGETHER IN ME. So ultimately, when I imagine myself in the shoes of 5 different people for one day each, I am, in effect, imagining what it’s like to go through 5 headaches. But in reality, there is no such what-it’s-like among the 5 different people. The only what-it’s-like present is the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-headache, which each of the 5 different people would experience.
In essence, what I am saying is that when you or I imagine ourselves in the shoes of 5 different people for a day each, we do end up with the (imagined) what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-headaches, but there is no such what-it’s-like in reality among those different 5 people. But there needs to be in order for their 5 independent headaches to be worse than a major headache. I hope that made sense. If it didn’t, then I guess you can ignore these last two paragraphs.
P.S.S. As a more direct response to your questions in the second paragraph of your response: it would still be possible IF the person is still the same subject-of-experience after the radical change in personality and loss of memory. It is impossible between two different people because they are numerically different subjects-of-experience.
I’d say I’m making two arguments:
1) There is no distinct personal identity; rather it’s a continuum. The you today is different than the you yesterday. The you today is also different from the me today. These differences are matters of degree. I don’t think there is clearly a “subject of experience” that exists across time. There are too many cases (eg. brain injuries that change personality) that the single consciousness theory can’t account for.
2) Even if I agreed that there was a distinct difference in kind that represented a consistent person, I don’t think it’s relevant to the moral accounting of experiences. Ie. I don’t see why it matters whether experiences are “independent” or not. They’re real experiences of pain
1) I agree that the me today is different from the me yesterday, but I would say this is a qualitative difference, not a numerical difference. I am still the numerically same subject-of-experience as yesterday’s me, even though I may be qualitatively different in various physical and psychological ways from yesterday’s me. I also agree that the me today is different from the you today, but here I would say that the difference is not merely qualitative, but numerical too. You and I are numerically different subjects-of-experience, not just qualitatively different.
Moreover, I would agree that our qualitative differences are a matter of degrees and not of kind. I am not a chair and you a subject-of-experience. We are both embodied subjects-of-experience (i.e. of that kind), but we differ to various degrees: you might be taller or lighter-skinned, etc
I thus agreed with all your premises and have shown that they can be compatible with the existence of a subject-of-experience that extends through time. So I don’t quite see a convincing argument for the lack of the existence of a subject-of-experience that extends through time.
2) So here you’re granting me the existence of a subject-of-experience that extends through time, but you’re saying that it makes no moral difference whether one subject-of-experience suffers 5 minor headaches or 5 numerically different subjects-of-experience each experience 1 minor headache, and that therefore, we should just focus on the number of headaches.
Well, as I tried to explain in previous replies, when there is one subject-of-experience who extends through time, it is possible for him to experience what it’s like of going through 5 minor headaches, since after all, he experiences all 5 minor headaches (whether he remembers experiencing them or not). Moreover, it is ONLY the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches that can plausibly be worse or more painful than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache.
In contrast, when the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, each of the 5 people experiences only what it’s like to go through 1 minor headache. Moreover, the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-headache CANNOT plausibly be worse or more painful than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache.
Thus it matters whether the 5 headaches are experienced all by a single subject-of-experience (i.e. experienced together) or spread across five experientially independent subject-of-experiences (i.e. experienced independently). It matters because, again, ONLY when the 5 headaches are experienced together can there be the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches and ONLY that can plausibly be said to be worse or more painful than the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-headache.
P.S. I have extensively edited my very first reply to you, so that it is more clear and detailed for first-time readers. I would recommend giving it a read if you have the time. Thanks.
1) I’d like to know what your definition of “subject-of-experience” is.
2) For this to be true, I believe you would need to posit something about “conscious experience” that is entirely different than everything else in the universe. If say factory A produces 15 widgets, factory B produces 20 widgets, and Factory C produces 15 widgets, I believe we’d agree that the number of widgets in A+C is greater than the number of widgets produced by B, no matter how independent the factories are. Do you disagree with this?
Similarly, I’d say if 15 neural impulses occur in brain A, 20 in brain B, and 15 in brain C, the # of neural impulses is greater than A+C than in B. Do you disagree with this?
Conscious experiences are a product of such neural chemical reactions. Do you disagree with this?
Given this, It seems odd to then postulate that even though all ingredients are the same and are additive between individuals, the conscious product is not. It seems arbitrary and unnecessary to explain anything, and there is no reason to believe it is true.
1) A subject of experience is just something which “enjoys” or has experience(s), whether that be certain visual experiences, pain experiences, emotional experiences, etc… In other words, a subject of experience is just something for whom there is a “what-it’s-like”. A building, a rock or a plant is not a subject of experience because it has no experience(s). That is, for example, why we don’t feel concerned when we step on grass: it doesn’t feel pain or feel anything. On the other hand, a cow is a subject-of-experience—it presumably has visual experiences and pain experience and all sorts of other experiences. Or more technically, a subject-of-experience (or multiple) may be realized by a cow’s physical system (i.e. brain). There would be a single subject-of-experience if all the experiences realized by the cow’s physical system are felt by a single subject. Of course, it is possible that within the cow’s physical system’s life span, multiple subjects-of-experience are realized. This would be the case if not all of the experiences realized by the cow’s physical system are felt by a single subject.
2) But when we say that 5 minor headaches is “worse” or “more painful” than a major pain, we are not simply making a “greater than, less than, or equal to” number comparison like 5 minor headaches is more headaches than 1 major headaches.
Clearly 5 minor headaches, whether they are spread across 5 persons or not, is more headaches than 1 major headache. But that is irrelevant. Because the claim you’re making is that 5 minor headaches, whether they are spread across 5 persons or not, is WORSE or MORE PAINFUL than 1 major headache. And this is where I disagree.
I am saying that for 5 minor headaches to be plausibly worse than a major headache, it must be the case that there is a what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, because only THAT KIND of experience can be plausibly worse or more painful than a major headache. But, for there to be THAT KIND of experience, it must be the case that all 5 minor headaches are felt by a single subject of experience and not spread among 5 experientially independent subjects of experience. For when the 5 minor headaches are spread, there is only 5 experientially independent what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-minor-headache, and no what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headache.
Sorry for the caps btw, I have no other way of placing emphasis.
That’s what I’m interested in a definition of. What makes it a “single subject”? How is this a binary term?
I am making a greater than/less than comparison. That comparison is with pain which results from the neural chemical reactions. There is more pain (more of these chemical reactions based experiences) in the 5 headaches than there is in the 1 whether or not they occur in a single subject. I don’t see any reason to treat this differently then the underlying chemical reactions.
No problem on the caps.
REVISED TO BE MORE CLEAR ON MAR 19:
You also write, “There is more pain (more of these chemical reactions based experiences) in the 5 headaches than there is in the 1 whether or not they occur in a single subject. I don’t see any reason to treat this differently then the underlying chemical reactions.”
Well, to me the reason is obvious: when we say that 5 minor pains in one person is greater than (i.e. worse than) a major pain in one person” we are using “greater than” in an EXPERIENTIAL sense. On the other hand, when we say that 10 neural impulses in one person is greater than 5 neural impulses in one person, we are using “greater than” in a QUANTITATIVE/NUMERICAL sense. These two comparisons are very different in their nature. The former is about the relative STRENGTH of the pains, the latter is about the relative QUANTITIES of neural impulses.
So just because 10 neural impulses is greater than 5 neural impulses in the numerical sense, whether the 10 impulses take place in 1 brain or 5 brains, that does NOT mean that 5 minor pains is greater than 1 major headache in the experiential sense, whether the 5 minor pains are realized in 1 brain or 5 brains.
This relates back to why I said it can be very misleading to represent pain comparisons in numerals like 5*2>5. Such representations do not distinguish between the two senses described above, and thus can easily lead one to conflate them.
Just to make sure we’re on the same page here, let me summarize where we’re at:
In choice situation 2 of my paper, I said that supposing that any person would rather endure 5 minor headaches of a certain sort than 1 major headache of a certain sort when put to the choice, then a case in which Al suffers 5 such minor headaches is morally worse than a case in which Emma suffers 1 such major headache. And the reason I gave for this is that Al’s 5 minor headaches is more painful (i.e. worse) than Emma’s major headache.
In choice situation 3, however, the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 different people: Al and four others. Here I claim that the case in which Emma suffers a major headache is morally worse than a case in which the 5 people each suffer 1 minor headache. And the reason I gave for this is that Emma’s major headache is more painful (i.e. worse) than each of the 5 people’s minor headache.
Against this, you claim that if the supposition from choice situation 2 carries over to choice situation 3 - the supposition that any person would rather endure 5 minor headaches than 1 major headache if put to the choice -, then the case in which the 5 people each suffer 1 minor headache is morally worse than Emma suffering a major headache. And your reason for saying this is that you think 5 minor headaches spread across the 5 people is more painful (i.e. worse) than Emma’s major headache.
THAT is what I took you to mean when you wrote: “Conditional on agreeing 5 minor headaches in one person is worse than 1 major headache in one person, I would feel exactly the same if it were spread out over 5 people.”
As a result, this whole time, I have been trying to explain why it is that 5 minor headaches spread across five people CANNOT be more painful (i.e. worse) than a major headache, even while the same minor 5 headaches all had by one person can (and would be, under the supposition).
Importantly, I never took myself to be disagreeing with you on whether 5 instances of a minor headache is more than 1 instance of a major headache. Clearly, 5 instances of a minor headache is more than 1 instance of a major headache, regardless of whether the 5 instances were all experienced by a single subject-of-experience or spread across 5.
I took our disagreement to be about whether 5 instances of a minor headache, when spread across 5 people, is more painful (i.e. worse) than an instance of a major headache.
My view is that only when the 5 headaches are all had by one subject-of-experience could they be more painful (i.e. worse) than a major headache. Moreover, my view is that it literally makes no sense to say (or that it is at least false to say, even if it made sense) that the 5 headaches, when spread across 5 people, is more painful (i.e. worse) than a major headache, under the supposition.
If I am right, then in choice situation 3, the morally worse case should be the case in which Emma suffers one major headache, not the case in which 5 people each suffer one minor headache.
In response to your question, “what makes a single subject “a single subject”, here is another stab: Within any given physical system that can realize subjects of experience (e.g. a cow’s brain), the subject-of-experience at t-1 (S1) is numerically identical to the subjective-of-experience at t-2 (S2) if and only if an experience at t-1 (E1) and an experience at t-2 (E2) are both felt by S1. That is S1 = S2 iff S1 feels E1 and E2.
That in conjunction with the definition I provided earlier is probably the best I can do to communicate what I take a subject-of-experience to be, and what makes a particular subject-of-experience the numerically same subject-of-experience over time.
To your first comment, I disagree. I think it’s the same thing. Experiences are the result of chemical reactions. Are you advocating a form of dualism where experience is separated from the physical reactions in the brain?
I think there is more total pain. I’m not counting the # of headaches. I’m talking about the total amount of pain.
Can you define S1?
We may not, as these discussions tend to go. I’m fine calling it.
I think we have to get closer to defining a subject of experience, (S1); I think I would need this to go forward. But here’s my position on the issue: I think moral personhood doesn’t make sense as a binary concept (the mind from a brain is different at different times, sometimes vastly different such as in the case of a major brain injury) The matter in the brain is also different over time (ship of Theseus). I don’t see a good reason to call these the same person in a moral sense in a way that two minds of two coexisting brains wouldn’t be. The consciousness experiences are different between at different times and different brains; I see this as a matter of degree of similarity.
Hi Michael,
I removed the comment about worrying that we might not reach a consensus because I worried that it might send you the wrong idea (i.e. that I don’t want to talk anymore). It’s been tiring I have to admit, but also enjoyable and helpful. Anyways, you clearly saw my comment before I removed it. But yeah, I’m good with talking on.
I agree that experiences are the result of chemical reactions, however the nature of the relations “X being experientially worse than Y” and “X being greater in number than Y” are relevantly different. Someone by the name of “kbog” recently read my very first reply to you (the updated edition) and raised basically the same concern as you have here, and I think I have responded to him pretty aptly. So if you don’t mind, can you read my discussion with him:
http://effective-altruism.com/ea/1lt/is_effective_altruism_fundamentally_flawed/dmu
I would have answered you here, but I’m honestly pretty drained from replying to kbog, so I hope you can understand. Let me know what you think.
Regarding defining S1, I don’t think I can do better than to say that S1 is a thing that has, or is capable of having, experience(s). I add the phrase ‘or is capable of having’ this time because it has just occurred to me that when I am in dreamless sleep, I have no experiences whatsoever, yet I’d like to think that I am still around—i.e. that the particular subject-of-experience that I am is still around. However, it’s also possible that a subject-of-experience exists only when it is experiencing something. If that is true, then the subject-of-experience that I am is going out of and coming into existence several times a night. That’s spooky, but perhaps true.
Anyways, I can’t seem to figure out why you need any better of a definition of a subject-of-experience than that. I feel like my definition sufficiently distinguishes it from other kinds of things. Moreover, I have provided you with a criteria for identity over time. Shouldn’t this be enough?
You write, “I think moral personhood doesn’t make sense as a binary concept (the mind from a brain is different at different times, sometimes vastly different such as in the case of a major brain injury) The matter in the brain is also different over time (ship of Theseus).”
I agree with all of this, but I would insist those NEED NOT BE numerical differences, just qualitative differences. A mind can be very qualitatively different (e.g. big personality change) from one moment to the next, but that does not necessarily mean that it is a numerically different mind. Likewise, a brain can be very qualitative different (e.g. big change in shape) from one moment to the next, but that does not necessarily mean that it is a numerically different brain.
You then write, “I don’t see a good reason to call these the same person in a moral sense in a way that two minds of two coexisting brains wouldn’t be.”
Well, if a particular mind is the numerically same mind before and after a big qualitative change (e.g., due to a brain injury), then clearly there is reason to call it the same mind/person in a way that two minds of two coexisting brains wouldn’t be. After all, it’s the numerically same mind, whereas two minds of two coexisting brains are clearly two numerically different minds.
You might agree that there is a literal reason to call it the same mind, but deny that there is a moral reason that wouldn’t be true of two minds of two coexisting brains. But I think the literal reason constitutes or provides the moral reason: if a mind is numerically the same mind before and after a big qualitative change (e.g. big personality change), then that means whatever experiences are had by that mind before and after the change are HAD BY THAT NUMERICALLY SAME MIND. So if that particular mind suffered a headache before the radical change and then suffered a headache after the change, it is THAT PARTICULAR MIND THAT SUFFERS BOTH. That is enough reason to also call that mind the same mind in a moral sense that wouldn’t also be true of two numerically different minds of two coexisting brains.
I didn’t quite understand the sentences after that.
FYI, I’m pretty busy over the next few days, but I’d like to get back to this conversation at one point. If I do, it may be a bit though.
No worries!
Because I don’t have any reason to feel different. Imagine if I said, “5 headaches among tall people would be better than 5 headaches among short people.” And then you said, “no, it’s the same either way. Height is irrelevant.” And then I replied, “I just don’t get why you would feel the same if the people are tall or short!” In that case, clearly I wouldn’t be giving you a response that carries any weight. If you want to show that the cases are different in a relevant way, then you need to spell it out. In the absence of reasons to say that there is a difference, we assume by default that they’re similar.
The third sentence does not follow from the second. This is like saying “there is nothing present in a Toyota Corolla that could make it weigh more than a Ford F-150, therefore five Toyota Corollas cannot weigh more than a Ford F-150.” Just because there is no one element in a set of events that is worse than a bad thing doesn’t mean that the set of events is not worse than the bad thing. There are lots of events where badness increases with composition, even without using aggregative utilitarian logic. E.g.: it is okay to have sex with Michelle, and it is okay to marry Tiffany, but it is not okay to do both.
1) “Because I don’t have any reason to feel different.”
Ok, well, that comes as a surprise to me. In any case, I hope after reading my first reply to Michael_S, you at least sort of see how it could be possible that someone like I would feel surprised by that, even if you don’t agree with my reasoning. In other words, I hope you at least sort of see how it could be possible that someone who would clearly agree with you that, say, 5 minor headaches all had by 1 tall person is experientially just as bad as 5 minor headaches all had by 1 short person, might still disagree with you that 5 minor headaches all had by 1 person is experientially just as bad as 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people.
2) “If you want to show that the cases are different in a relevant way, then you need to spell it out. In the absence of reasons to say that there is a difference, we assume by default that they’re similar.”
That’s what my first reply to Michael_S, in effect, aimed to do.
3) “The third sentence does not follow from the second. This is like saying “there is nothing present in a Toyota Corolla that could make it weigh more than a Ford F-150, therefore five Toyota Corollas cannot weigh more than a Ford F-150.” Just because there is no one element in a set of events that is worse than a bad thing doesn’t mean that the set of events is not worse than the bad thing. There are lots of events where badness increases with composition, even without using aggregative utilitarian logic. E.g.: it is okay to have sex with Michelle, and it is okay to marry Tiffany, but it is not okay to do both.”
Your reductio-by-analogy (I made that phrase up) doesn’t work, because your analogy is relevantly different. In your analogy, we are dealing with the relation of _ being heavier than _, whereas I’m dealing with the relation of _ being experientially worse than _. These relations are very different in nature: one is quantitative in nature, the other is experiential in nature. You might insist that this is not a relevant difference, but I think it is when one really slows down to think about exactly what is it that makes 5 minor headaches experientially worse than a major headache.
As I mentioned, the answer is the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches. That is, the what-it’s-like of going through one minor headache, then another (sometime later), then another, then another, then another. It’s THAT SPECIFIC WHAT-IT’S-LIKE that can plausibly be experientially worse than a major headache. It’s THAT SPECIFIC WHAT-IT’S-LIKE that can plausibly be “shittier” or “sucker” than a major headache.
However, when the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, there is just 5 what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache, and no single what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches. Why? Because each of the minor headaches in this situation would be felt by a numerically non-identical subject-of-experience (i.e. 5 people), and numerically different subjects-of-experience cannot have their experiences “linked”. Otherwise, they would not be numerically different.
Therefore, only 5 minor headaches, when all had by one subject-of-experience (i.e. one person) can they be experientially worse than one major headache. And therefore, 5 minor headaches, when all had by one person, is experientially worse than 5 minor headaches, spread across 5 people.
I think what I just said above shows clearly how the relation of _ being experientially worse than _ is impacted by whether the 5 minor headaches are all had by one person or spread across 5 different people. Whereas the relation of _ being heavier than _ is not similarly affected. So that is the relevant difference.
I hope you can really consider what I’m saying here. Thanks.
Well I can see how it is possible for someone to believe that. I just don’t think it is a justified position, and if you did embrace it you would have a lot of problems. For instance, it commits you to believing that it doesn’t matter how many times you are tortured if your memory is wiped each time. Because you will never have the experience of being tortured a second time.
There are two rooms, painted bright orange inside. One person goes into the first room for five minutes, five people go into the second for one minute. If we define orange-perception as the phenomenon of one conscious mind’s perception of the color orange, the amount of orange-perception for the group is the same as the amount of orange-perception for the one person.
Something being experiential doesn’t imply that it is not quantitative. We can clearly quantify experiences in many ways, e.g. I had two dreams, I was awake for thirty seconds, etc. Or me and my friends each saw one bird, and so on.
Yes, but the question here is whether 5 what-it’s-lies-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is 5x worse than 1 minor headache. We can believe this moral claim without believing that the phenomenon of 5 separate headaches is phenomenally equivalent to 1 experience of 5 headaches. There are lots of cases where A is morally equivalent to B even though A and B are physically or phenomenally different.
1) “Well I can see how it is possible for someone to believe that. I just don’t think it is a justified position, and if you did embrace it you would have a lot of problems. For instance, it commits you to believing that it doesn’t matter how many times you are tortured if your memory is wiped each time. Because you will never have the experience of being tortured a second time.”
I disagree. I was precisely trying to guard against such thoughts by enriching my first reply to Michael_S with a case of forgetfulness. I wrote, “Now, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might have long forgotten about the first minor headache because, say, it happened so long ago. So, by the end of our 5th minor headache, we might not have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches EVEN THOUGH we in fact have experienced what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches.” (I added the caps here for emphasis)
The point I was trying to make in that passage is that if one person (i.e. one subject-of-experience) experienced all 5 minor headaches, then whether he remembers them or not, the fact of the matter is that HE felt all of them, and insofar as he has, he is experientially worse off than someone who only felt a major headache. Of course, if you asked him at the end of his 5th minor headache whether HE thinks he’s had it worse than someone with a major headache, he may say “no” because, say, he has forgotten about some of the minor headaches he’s had. But that does NOT MEAN that, IN FACT, he did not have it worse. After all, the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is experentially worse than one major headache, and HE has experienced the former, whether he remembers it or not.
So, if my memory is wiped each time after getting tortured, of course it still matters how many times I’m tortured. Because I WILL have the experience of being tortured a second time, whether or not I VIEW that experience as such.
2) “There are two rooms, painted bright orange inside. One person goes into the first room for five minutes, five people go into the second for one minute. If we define orange-perception as the phenomenon of one conscious mind’s perception of the color orange, the amount of orange-perception for the group is the same as the amount of orange-perception for the one person.
Something being experiential doesn’t imply that it is not quantitative. We can clearly quantify experiences in many ways, e.g. I had two dreams, I was awake for thirty seconds, etc. Or me and my friends each saw one bird, and so on.”
My point wasn’t that we can’t quantify experience in various ways, but that relations of an experiential nature, like the relation of X being experientially worse than Y, behave in relevantly different ways from relations of a quantitative—maybe ‘non-experiential’ might have been a better word—nature, like the relation of X being heavier than Y. As I tried to explain, the “experientially-worse-than” relation is impacted by whether the X (e.g. 5 minor headaches) are spread across 5 people or all had by one person, whereas the “heavier-than” relation is not impacted by whether X (e.g. 100 tons) are spread across 5 objects or true of 1 object.
3) “Yes, but the question here is whether 5 what-it’s-lies-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is 5x worse than 1 minor headache. We can believe this moral claim without believing that the phenomenon of 5 separate headaches is phenomenally equivalent to 1 experience of 5 headaches. There are lots of cases where A is morally equivalent to B even though A and B are physically or phenomenally different.”
The moral question here is whether a case in which 5 minor headaches are all had by one person is morally equivalent (i.e. morally just as bad) as a case in which 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people. You think it is, and I think it isn’t. Instead, I think the former case is morally worse than the latter case.
And the ONLY reason why I think this is because I think 5 headaches all had by one person is experientially worse than 5 headaches spread across 5 people. As I said before, I think experience is the only morally relevant factor.
Since I don’t think anything other than experience matters, I would deny the existence of cases in which A and B are morally just as bad/good where A and B differ phenomenally.
But I don’t have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to be 5 people going through 5 headaches either. So I’m missing out on just as much as the amnesiac. In both cases people’s perceptions are inaccurate.
Of course you can define a relation to have that property, but merely defining it that way gives us no reason to think that it should be the focus of our moral concern.
If I were to define a relation to have the property of being the target of our moral concern, it wouldn’t be impacted by how it were spread across multiple people.
Well, so do I. The point is that the mere fact that 5 headaches in one person is worse for one person doesn’t necessarily imply that it is worse overall for 5 headaches among 5 people.
Hi kbog, glad to hear back from you.
1) “But I don’t have an accurate appreciation of what it’s like to be 5 people going through 5 headaches either. So I’m missing out on just as much as the amnesiac. In both cases people’s perceptions are inaccurate.”
I don’t quite understand how this is a response to what I said, so let me retrace some things:
You first claimed that if I believed that 5 minor headaches all had by one person is experientially worse than 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people, then I would be committed to “believing that it doesn’t matter how many times you are tortured if your memory is wiped each time. Because you will never have the experience of being tortured a second time” and this is a problem.
I replied that it does matter how many times I get tortured because even if my memory is wiped each time, it is still ME (as opposed to a numerically different subject-of-experience, e.g. you) who would experience torture again and again. If my memory is wiped, I will incorrectly VIEW each additional episode of torture as the first one I’ve ever experienced, but it would not BE the first one I’ve ever experienced. I would still experience what-it’s-like-of-going-through-x-number-of-torture-episodes even if after each episode, my memory was wiped. Since it’s the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-x-number-of-torture-episodes (and not my memory of it) that is experientially worse than something else, and since X is morally worse than Y when X is experientially worse (i.e. involves more pain) than Y, therefore, it does matter how many times I’m tortured irrespective of my memory.
Now, the fact that you said that I “will never have the experience of being tortured a second time” suggests that you think that memory-continuity is necessary to being the numerically same subject-of-experience (i.e. person). If this were true, then every time a person’s memory is wiped, a numerically different person comes into existence and so no person would experience what-it’s-like-of-going-through-2-torture-episodes if a memory wipe happens after each torture episode. But I don’t think memory-continuity is necessary to being the numerically same subject-of-experience. I think a subject-of-experience at time t1 (call this subject “S1″) and a subject-of-experience at some later time t2 (call this subject “S2”) are numerically identical (though perhaps qualitatively different) just in case an experience at t1 (call this experience E1) and an experience at t2 (call this experience E2) are both felt by S1. In other words, I think S1 = S2 iff E1 and E2 are both felt by S1. S1 may have forgotten about E1 by t2 (due to a memory wipe), but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t S1 who also felt E2.
In a nutshell, memory (and thus how accurate we appreciate our past pains) is not morally relevant since it does not prevent a person from actually experiencing what-it’s-like-of-going-through-multiple-pains, and it is this latter thing that is morally relevant. So I don’t quite see the point of your latest reply.
2) “Of course you can define a relation to have that property, but merely defining it that way gives us no reason to think that it should be the focus of our moral concern.
If I were to define a relation to have the property of being the target of our moral concern, it wouldn’t be impacted by how it were spread across multiple people.”
I am not simply defining a relation here. We both agree that experience is morally relevant and that therefore pain is morally bad, and that therefore an outcome that involves more pain than another outcome is morally worse than the latter outcome. That is, we agree X is morally worse than Y iff X involves more pain than Y. But how are we to understand phrase ‘involves more pain than’? I understand it as meaning “is experientially worse than”, which is why I ultimately think that 5 minor headaches all had by one person is morally worse than 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people. You seem to agree with me that the former is experientially worse than the latter, yet you deny that the former is morally worse than the latter. Thus, you have to offer another plausible account of the phrase ‘involves more pain than’ on which 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves just as much pain as 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people. IMPORTANTLY, this account has to be one according to which 5 minor headaches all had by one person can involve more pain than 1 major headache and not merely in an experientially worse sense. Can you offer such an account?
I mean, how can 5 minor headaches all had by one person involve more pain than 1 major headache if not in an experientially worse sense? You might try to use math to help illustrate your point of view. You might say, well suppose each minor headache represents a pain of a magnitude of 2, and the major headache represents a pain of a magnitude of 6. You might further clarify that the 2 doesn’t just signify the INTENSITY of the minor pain since how shitty a pain episode is doesn’t just depend on its intensity but also on its duration. Thus, you might clarify that the 2 represents the overall shitness of the pain—the disutility of it, so to speak. Next, you might say that insofar as there are 5 such minor headaches, they represent 10 disutility, and 10 is bigger than 6. Therefore 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves more pain than a major headache.
But then I would ask you: what is the reality underpinning the number 10? Is it not some overall shittiness that is experientially worse than the overall shittiness from experiencing one major headache? Is it not the overall shittiness of what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches? If it is, then we haven’t departed from my “is experientially worse than” interpretation of ‘involves more pain than’. If it isn’t, then what is it?
To see the problem even more clearly, consider when the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people. Here again, you will say that the 5 minor headaches represent 10 disutility and 10 is greater than 6, therefore 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people involve more pain than one major headache. This conclusion is easy to arrive at when one just focuses on the math: 2 x 5 = 10 and 10 > 6. But we must not forget to ask ourselves what the “10” might signify in reality. Is it meant to signify an overall shittiness that is shittier than the experience of 1 major headache? Ok, but where in reality is this overall shittiness? I certainly don’t see it. I don’t see the presence of this overall shittiness because there is no experience of it.
(Thus, I find using math to show that 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people involves more pain than 1 major headache is very misleading: yes, mathematically, you can easily portray it. But, at bottom, the ’10′ maps onto nothing in reality.)
So in conclusion, I don’t see any other plausible interpretation of ‘involves more pain than’ than “is experientially worse than”. If that is the case, then not only is it the case that I haven’t arbitrarily defined a relation, but it’s also the case that this relation is the only plausible morally relevant relation.
3) “Well, so do I. The point is that the mere fact that 5 headaches in one person is worse for one person doesn’t necessarily imply that it is worse overall for 5 headaches among 5 people.”
We need to distinguish between experientially worse and morally worse. You agree that 5 headaches in one person is experientially worse than 5 headaches spread across 5 people, yet you insist that that doesn’t mean the former is morally worse than the latter. Well, again, this requires you to show that there is another plausible interpretation of ‘involves more pain than’ on which the former involves just as much pain as the latter.
Also, I should note that I was too hasty when I said that I think experience is the ONLY morally relevant factor. Actually, I also think who suffers is a morally relevant factor, but that doesn’t affect our discussion here.
The point is that the subject has the same experiences as that of having one headache five times, and therefore has the same experiences as five headaches among five people. There isn’t any morally relevant difference between these experiences, as the mere fact that the latter happens to be split among five people isn’t morally relevant. So we should suppose that they are morally similar.
You think it should be “involves more pain for one person than”. But I think it should be “involves more pain total”, or in other words I take your metric, evaluate each person separately with your metric, and add up the resulting numbers.
It’s just plain old cardinal utility: the sum of the amount of pain experienced by each person.
Why?
In the exact same way that you think they can.
Correct, we haven’t, because we’re not yet doing any interpersonal comparisons.
It is distributed − 20% of it is in each of the 5 people who are in pain.
1) “The point is that the subject has the same experiences as that of having one headache five times, and therefore has the same experiences as five headaches among five people.”
One subject-of-experience having one headache five times = the experience of what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-headaches. (Note that the symbol is an equal sign in case it’s hard to see.)
Five headaches among five people = 5 experientially independent experiences of what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-headache. (Note the 5 experiences are experientially independent of each other because each is felt by a numerically different subject-of-experience, rather than all by one subject-of-experience.)
The single subject-of-experience does not “therefore has the same experiences as five headaches among five people.”
2) “You think it should be “involves more pain for one person than”. But I think it should be “involves more pain total”, or in other words I take your metric, evaluate each person separately with your metric, and add up the resulting numbers.”
Ok, and after adding up the numbers, what does the final resulting number refer to in reality? And in what sense does the referent (i.e. the thing referred to) involve more pain than a major headache?
Consider the case in which the 5 minor headaches are spread across 5 people, and suppose each minor headache has an overall shittiness score of 2 and a major headache has an overall shittiness score of 6. If I asked you what ‘2’ refers to, you’d easily answer the shitty feeling characteristic of what it’s like to go through a minor-headache. And you would say something analogous for ‘6’ if I asked you what it refers to.
You then add up the five ’2’s and get 10. Ok, now, what does the ’10′ refer to? You cannot answer the shitty feeling characteristic of what it’s like to go through 5 minor headaches, for this what-it’s-like is not present since no individual feels all 5 headaches. The only what-it’s-like that is present are 5 experientially independent what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache. Ok so what does ’10′ refer to? 5 of these shitty feelings? Ok, and in what sense do 5 of these shitty feelings involve more pain than 1 major headache? Clearly not in an experiential sense for only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches is plausibly experientially worse than a major headache. So in what sense does the referent involve more pain than a major headache?
THIS IS THE CRUX OF OUR DISAGREEMENT. I CANNOT SEE HOW 5 what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-minor-headache involves more pain than 1 major headache. YES, mathematically, you can show me ’10 > 6′ all day long, but I don’t see any reality onto which it maps!
3) “It’s just plain old cardinal utility: the sum of the amount of pain experienced by each person.”
Yes, but I don’t see how that “sum of pain” can involve more pain than 1 major headache because what that “sum of pain” is, ultimately speaking, are 5 what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-pain, and NOT 1 what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-pains.
4) “Why?”
Because ultimately you’ll need an account of ‘involves more pain than’ on which 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people can involve more pain than 1 major headache. And in that situation, it is clearly the case that the 5 minor headaches are not experientially worse than the 1 major headache (for only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches can plausibly be experientially worse than 1 major headache).
My point was just that you’ll need an account of ‘involves more pain than’ that can make sense of how 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache can involve more pain than 1 major headache, for my account (i.e. “is experientially worse than”) certainly cannot make sense of it.
5) “It is distributed − 20% of it is in each of the 5 people who are in pain.”
But when it’s distributed, you won’t have an overall shittiness that is shittier than the experience of 1 major headache, at least not when we understand “is shittier than” as meaning “is experientially worse than”. For 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache are not experientially worse than 1 major headache: only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches can plausibly be experientially worse than 1 major headache.
Your task, again, is to provide a different account of ‘involves more pain than’ or ‘shittier than’ on which, somehow, 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache can somehow involve more pain than 1 major headache.
The fact that they are separate doesn’t mean that their content is any different from the experience of the one person. Certainly, the amount of pain they involve isn’t any different.
The total amount of suffering. Or, the total amount of well-being.
Because are multiple people and each of them has their own pain.
The amount of pain experienced among five people.
In the sense that each of them involves more than 1⁄5 as much pain, and the total pain among 5 feelings is the sum of pain in each of them.
Sure it’s experiential, all 10 of the pain is experienced. It’s just not experienced by the same person.
In the same way that there are more sheep apparitions among five people, each of them dreaming of two sheep, than for one person who is dreaming of six sheep.
But as far as cardinal utility is concerned, both quantities involve the same amount of pain. That’s just what you get from the definition of cardinal utility.
That just means I need a different account of “involves more pain than” (which I have) when interpersonal comparisons are being made, but it doesn’t mean that my account can’t be the same as your account when there is only one person.
But as I have been telling you this entire time, I don’t follow your definition of “experientially worse than”.
Well, I already did. But it’s really just the same as what utilitarians have been writing for centuries so it’s not like I had to provide it.
Yes, each of the 5 minor headaches spread among the 5 people are phenomenally or qualitatively the same as each of the 5 minor headaches of the one person. The fact that the headaches are spread does not mean that any of them, in themselves, feel any different from any of the 5 minor headaches of the one person. A minor headache feels like a minor headache, irrespective of who has it.
Now, each such minor headache constitutes a certain amount of pain, so 5 such minor headaches constitutes five such pain contents, and in THAT sense, five times as much pain. Moreover, since there are 5 such minor headaches in each case (i.e. the 1 person case and the 5 people case), therefore, each case involves the same amount of pain. This is so even if 5 minor headaches all had by one person (i.e. the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches) is experientially different from 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people (5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache).
Analogously, a visual experience of the color orange constitutes a certain amount of orange-ish feel, so 5 such visual experiences constitutes 5 such orange-ish feels, and in THAT sense, 5 times as much orange-ish feel. If one person experienced 5 such visual experiences one right after another and we recorded these experiences on an “experience recorder” and did the same with 5 such visual experiences spread among 5 people (where they each have their visual experience one right after the other), and then we played back both recordings, the playbacks viewed from the point of view of the universe would be identical: if each visual experience was 1 minute long, then both playbacks would be 5 minutes long of the same content. In this straight forward sense, 5 such visual experiences had by one person involves just as much orange-ish feel as 5 such visual experiences spread among 5 people. This is so even if the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-such-visual-experiences is not experientially the same as 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-such-visual-experience.
Right? I assume this is what you have in mind.
I thus understand your alternative account or sense of ‘involves more pain than’. I can see how according to it, 5 minor headaches had by 1 person involves the same amount of pain as 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people.
But again, consider 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people vs 1 major headache. Here you claim that the 5 minor headaches involves more pain than 1 major headache, and I asked you to explain in what sense. Why did I do this? Because it is clearest here how your account fails to achieve what you think it can achieve.
So let’s carefully think about this for a second. Each minor headache constitutes a certain amount of pain—the amount of pain determined how shitty it feels in absolute terms. The same is true of the major headache. Since a major headache feels a lot shittier in absolute terms, we might use ‘6’ to represent the amount of pain it constitutes, and a ‘2’ to represent the amount of pain a single minor headache constitutes. IMPORTANTLY, both numbers—and the amount of pain they each represent—are determined by how shitty the major headache and the minor headache respectively FEEL. (Note: As I mentioned in an earlier reply, how shitty a pain episode feels is a function of both its intensity and duration).
Ok. Now, we have 5 experientially independent minor headaches. We have 5 such pain contents, and in THAT sense, 5 times as much pain. The duration of the playback would be 5 times as long compared to the playback of 1 minor headache.) Ok, but do we have something that we can appropriately call 10. Well, these numbers are meant to represent the amount of pain there is and we just said that the amount of pain is determined by how shitty something feels.
The question then is: Do 5 experientially independent minor headaches some how collectively constitute an amount of pain that feels like a 10. Clearly they don’t because only the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches can plausibly feel like a 10, and 5 experientially independent what-it’s-likes-of-going-through-1-minor-headache is not experientially the same as 1 what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches.
You might reply that 5 experientially minor headaches collectively constitute a 10 in that each minor headache constitutes an amount of pain represented by 2 and there are 5 such headaches. In other words, the duration of the playback is 5 times as long. There is, in that sense, 5 times the amount of pain, which is 10.
Yes, there is 5 times the amount of pain in THAT sense, which is why I would agree that 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves just as much pain as 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people in THAT sense. BUT, notice that only the number 2 is experientially determined. The 5 is not. The 5 is the number of instances of the minor headaches. As a result, the number 10 is not experientially determined. So, the number 10 simply signifies a certain amount of pain (2) repeated 5 times. It does NOT signify an amount of pain that feels like a 10.
You might not disagree. You might ask, what is the problem here? The problem is that while you can compare a 10 and a 10 that are both determined in this non-purely experiential way, which in effect is what you do to get the result that 5 minor headaches had by one person involves just as much pain as 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people, you CANNOT compare a 10 and a 6 when the 10 is determined in this non-purely experiential way and the 6 is determined in a purely experiential way. For when the numbers are determined in different ways, they signify different things, and are thus incommensurate.
I can make the same point by talking in terms of pain, rather than in terms of numbers. When you say that 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves the same amount of pain as 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people, you are USING ‘amount of pain’ in a non-purely experiential sense. The amount of pain, so used, is determined by a certain amount of pain used in a purely experiential sense (i.e. an amount of pain determined by how shitty a minor headache feels) x how many minor headaches there are. While you can compare two amounts of pains, so used, with each other, you cannot compare an amount of pain, so used, with a certain amount of pain used in a purely experiential sense (i.e. an amount of pain determined by how shitty a major headache feels).
Of course, how many minor headaches there are will affect the amount of pain there is (used in a purely experiential sense) when the headaches all occur in one person. For 5 minor headaches all had by one person results in the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches, which feels shittier (i.e. is experentially worse) than a major headache and thus constitutes more pain than a major headache. Thus, when I say 5 minor headaches all had by one person involves an amount of pain that is more than the amount of pain of a major headache, I am using both “amount of pain” in a purely experiential sense. I am comparing apples to apples. But when you say that 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people involves an amount of pain that is more than the amount of pain of a major headache, you are using the former “amount of pain” in a non-purely experiential sense (the one I described in the previous paragraph) and the latter “amount of pain” in a purely experiential sense. You are comparing apples to oranges.
In this response, I’ve tried very hard to make clear why it is that even though your account of ‘involves more pain than’ can work for 5 minor headaches all had by one person vs 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people (and get the result you want: i.e. that the amount of pain in each case is the same), your account cannot work for 5 minor headaches spread across 5 people vs 1 major headache. Thus, your account cannot achieve what you think it can achieve.
I worry that I haven’t been as clear as I wish to be (despite my efforts), so if any part of it comes off unclear, I hope you can be as charitable as you can and make an effort to understand what I’m saying, even if you disagree with it.
I just wanted to say I thought this comment did a good job explaining the basis behind your moral intuitions, which I had not really felt a strong motivation for before now. I still don’t find it particularly compelling myself, but I can understand why others could find it important.
Overall I find this post confusing though, since the framing seems to be “Effective Altruism is making an intellectual mistake” whereas you just actually seem to have a different set of moral intuitions from those involved in EA, which are largely incompatible with effective altruism as it currently practiced. Whilst you could describe moral differences as intellectual mistakes, this does not seem to be a standard or especially helpful usage.
The comments etc. then just seem to have mostly been people explaining why they don’t find your moral intuition that ‘non-purely experientially determined’ and ‘purely experientially determined’ amounts of pain cannot be compared compelling. Since we seem to have reached a point where there seems to be a fundamental disagreement about considered moral values, it does not seem that attempting to change each others minds is very fruitful.
I think I would have found this post more conceptually clear if it had been structured:
EA conclusions actually require an additional moral assumption/axiom—and so if you don’t agree with this assumption then you should not obviously follow EA advice.
(Optionally) Why you find the moral assumption unconvincing/unlikely
(Extra Optionally) Tentative suggestions for what should be done in the absence of the assumption.
Where throughout the assumption is the commensuratabilitly of ‘non-purely experientially determined’ and ‘purely experientially determined’ experience.
In general I am not very sure what you had in mind as the ideal outcome of this post. I’m surprised if you thought most EAs agreed with you on your moral intuition, since so much of EA is predicated on its converse (as is much of established consequential thinking etc.). But equally I am not sure what value we can especially bring to you if you feel very sure in your conviction that the assumption does not hold.
(Note I also made this as a top level comment so it would be less buried, so it might make more sense to respond (if you would like to) there)
Just because two things are different doesn’t mean they are incommensurate. It is easy to compare apples and oranges: for instance, the orange is healthier than the apple, the orange is heavier than the apple, the apple is tastier than the orange. You also compare two different things, by saying that a minor headache is less painful than torture, for instance. You think that different people’s experiences are incommensurable, but I don’t see why.
In fact, there is good reason to think that any two values are necessarily commensurable. For if something has value to an agent, then it must provide motivation to them should they be perceiving, thinking and acting correctly, for that is basically what value is. If something (e.g. an additional person’s suffering) does not provide additional motivation, then either I’m not responding appropriately to it or it’s not a value. And if my motivation is to follow the axioms of expected utility theory then it must be a function over possible outcomes where my motivation for each outcome is a single number. And if my motivation for an outcome is a single number, then it must take the different values associated with that outcome and combine them into one figure denoting how valuable I find it overall.
But I didn’t say that. As long as two different things share certain aspects/dimensions (e.g. the aspect of weight, the aspect of nutrition, etc...), then of course they can be compared on those dimensions (e.g. the weight of an orange is more than the weight of an apple, i.e., an orange weighs more than an apple).
So I don’t deny that two different things that share many aspects/dimensions may be compared in many ways. But that’s not the problem.
The problem is that when you say that the amount of pain involved in 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people is more than the amount of pain involved in 1 major headache (i.e., 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people involves more pain than 1 major headache), you are in effect saying something like the WEIGHT of an orange is more than the NUTRITION of an apple. This is because the former “amount of pain” is used in a non-purely experiential sense while the latter “amount of pain” is used in a purely experiential sense. When I said you are comparing apples to oranges, THIS is what I meant.
No, I am effectively saying that the weight of five oranges is more than the weight of one orange.
That is wrong. In both cases I evaluate the quality of the experience multiplied by the number of subjects. It’s the same aspect for both cases. You’re just confused by the fact that, in one of the cases but not the other, the resulting quantity happens to be the same as the number provided by your “purely experiential sense”. If I said “this apple weighs 100 grams, and this orange weighs 200 grams,” you wouldn’t tell me that I’m making a false comparison merely because both the apple and the orange happen to have 100 calories. There is nothing philosophically noteworthy here, you have just stumbled upon the fact that any number multiplied by one is still one.
As if that isn’t decisive enough, imagine for instance that it was a comparison between two sufferers and five, rather than between one and five. Then you would obviously have no argument at all, since my evaluation of the two people’s suffering would obviously not be in the “purely experiential sense” that you talk about. So clearly I am right whenever more than one person is involved. And it would be strange for utilitarianism to be right in all those cases, but not when there was just one person. So it must be right all the time.
You’ll need to read to the very end of this reply before my argument seems complete.
Case 1: 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people
Case 2: 1 major headache had by one person
Yes, I understand that in each case, you are multiplying a certain amount of pain (determined solely by how badly something feels) by the number of instances to get a total amount of pain (determined via this multiplication), and then you are comparing the total amount of pain in each case.
For example, in Case 1, you are multiplying the amount of pain of a minor headache (determined solely by how badly a minor headache feels) by the number of instances to get a total amount of pain (determined via this multiplication). Say each minor headache feels like a 2, then 2 x 5 = 10. Call this 10 “10A”.
Similarly, in Case 2, you are multiplying the amount of pain of a major headache (determined solely by how badly a major headache feels) by the number of instances, in this case just 1, to get a total amount of pain (determined via this multiplication). Say the major headache feels like a 6, then 6 x 1 = 6. Call this latter 6 “6A”.
You then compare the 10A with the 6A. Moreover, since the amounts of pain represented by 10A and 6A are both gotten by multiplying one dimension (i.e. amount of pain, determined purely experientially) by another dimension (instances), you claim that you are comparing things along the same dimension, namely, A. But this is problematic.
To see the problem, consider
Case 3: 5 minor headaches all had by 1 person.
Here, like in Case 1, we can multiply the amount of pain of a minor headache (determined purely experientially) by the number of instances to get a total amount of pain (determined via this multiplication). 2 x 5 = 10. This 10 is the 10A sort.
OR, unlike in Case 1, we can determine the final amount of pain not by multiplying those things, but instead in the same way we determine the amount of pain of a single minor headache, namely, by considering how badly the 5 minor headaches feels. We can consider how badly the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-headaches feels. It feels like a 10, just as a minor headache feels like a 2, and a major headache feels like a 6. Call these 10E, 2E and 6E respectively. The ‘E’ signifies that the numbers were determined purely experientially.
Ok. I’m sure you already understand all that. Now here’s the problem.
You insist that there is no problem with comparing 10A and 6A. After all, they are both determined in the same way: multiplying an experience by its instances.
I am saying there is a problem with that. The problem is that saying 10A is more than 6A makes no sense. Why not? Because, importantly, what goes into determining the 10A and 6A are 2E and 6E respectively: 2E x 5 = 10A. 6E x 1 = 6A. So what?
Well think about it. 2E x 5 instances is really just 2E, 2E, 2E, 2E, 2E.
And 6E x 1 instance is really just 6E.
So when you assert 10A is more than 6A, you are really just asserting that (2E, 2E, 2E, 2E, 2E) is more than 6E.
But then notice that, at bottom, you are still working with the dimension of experience (E) - the dimension of how badly something feels. The problem for you, then, is that the only intelligible form of comparison on this dimension is the “is experientially more bad than” (i.e. is experientially worse than) comparison.
(Of course, there is also the dimension of instances, and an intelligible form of comparison on this dimension is the “is more in instances than” comparison. For example, you can say 5 minor headaches is more in instances than 1 major headache (i.e. 5 > 1). But obviously, the comparison we care about is not merely a comparison of instances.)
Analogously, when you are working with the dimension of weight—the dimension of how much something weighs -, the only intelligible form of comparison is “weighs more than”.
Now, you keep insisting that there is an analogy between
1) your way of comparing the amounts of pain of various pain episodes (e.g. 5 minor headaches vs 1 major headache), and
2) how we normally compare the weights of various things (e.g. 5 small oranges vs 1 big orange).
For example, you say,
So let me explain why they are DIS-analogous. Consider the following example:
Case 1: Five small oranges, 2lbs each. (Just like 5 minor headaches, each feeling like a 2).
Case 2: One big orange, 6lbs. (Just like 1 major headache that feels like a 6).
Now, just as the 2 of a minor headache is determined by how badly it feels, the 2 of a small orange is determined by how much it weighs. So just as we write, 2E x 5 = 10A, we can similarly write 2W x 5 = 10A. And just as we write, 6E x 1 = 6A, we can similarly write 6W x 1 = 6A.
Now, if you assert that (the total amount of weight represented by) 10A is more than 6A, I would have NO problem with that. Why not? Because the comparison “is more than” still occurs on the dimension of weight (W). You are saying 5 small oranges WEIGHS more than 1 big orange. The comparison thus occurs on the SAME dimension that was used to determine the number 2 and 6 (numbers that in turn determined 10A and 6A): A small orange was determined to be 2 by how much it WEIGHED. Likewise with the big orange. And when you say 10A is more than 6A, the comparison is still made on that dimension.
By contrast, when you assert that (the total amount of pain represented by) 10A is more than 6A, the “is more than” does not occur on the dimension of experience anymore. It does not occur on the dimension of how badly something feels anymore. You are not saying that 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people is EXPERIENTIALLY WORSE than 1 major headache had by 1 person. You are saying something else. In other words, the comparison does NOT occur on the same dimension that was used to determine the number 2 and 6 (numbers that in turn determined 10A and 6A): A minor headache was determined to be 2 by how EXPERIENTIALLY BAD IT FELT. Likewise with the major headache. Yet, when you say 10A is more than 6A, you are not making a comparison on that dimension anymore.
So I hope you see how your way of comparing the amounts of pain between various pain episodes is disanalogous to how we normally compare the weights between various things.
Now, just as the dimension of weight (i.e. how much something weighs) and the dimension of instances (i.e. how many instances there are) do not combine to form some substantive third dimension on which to compare 5 small oranges with a big orange, the dimension of experience (i.e. how badly something feels) and the dimension of instances do not combine to form some substantive third dimension on which to compare 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people and 1 major headache had by one person. At best, they combine to form a trivial third dimension consisting in their collection/conjunction, on which one can intelligibly compare, say, 32 minor headaches with 23 minor headaches, irrespective of how the 32 and 23 minor headaches are spread. This trivial dimension is the dimension of “how many instances (i.e. how much) of a certain pain there is”. On this dimension, 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people cannot be compared with a MAJOR headache, because they are different pains, but 5 minor headaches spread among 5 people can be compared with 5 minor headaches all had by 1 person. Moreover, the result of such a comparison would be that they are the same on this dimension (as I allowed in an earlier reply). But this is a small victory given that this dimension won’t allow any comparisons between differential pains (e.g. 5 minor headaches and a major headache).
What I am working with “at bottom” is irrelevant here, because I’m not making a comparison with it. There are lots of things we compare that involve different properties “at bottom”.
And obviously the comparison we care about is not merely a comparison how bad it feels for any given person.
No it doesn’t. That is, if I were to apply the same logic to oranges that you do to people, I would say that there is Mono-Orange-Weight, defined as the most weight that is ever present in one of a group of oranges, and Multi-Orange-Weight, defined as the total weight that is present in a group of oranges, and insist that you cannot compare one to the other, so one orange weighs the same as five oranges.
Of course that would be nonsense, as it’s true that you can compare orange weights. But you can see how your argument fails. Because this is all you are doing; you are inventing a distinction between “purely experiential” and “non-purely experiential” badness and insisting that you cannot compare one against the other by obfuscating the difference between applying either metric to a single entity.
But that isn’t how I determined that one person with a minor headache has 2 units of pain total.
You are right, I am comparing one person’s “non purely experiential” headache to five people’s “non purely experiential” headaches.
It’s not reasonable to expect me to change my mind when you’re repeating the exact same argument that you gave before while ignoring the second argument I gave in my comment.
hey kbog, I didn’t anticipate you would respond so quickly… I was editting my reply while you replied… Sorry about that. Anyways, I’m going to spend the next few days slowly re-reading and sitting on your past few replies in an all-out effort to understand your point of view. I hope you can do the same with just my latest reply (which I’ve editted). I think it needs to be read to the end for the full argument to come through.
Also, just to be clear, my goal here isn’t to change your mind. My goal is just to get closer to the truth as cheesy as that might sound. If I’m the one in error, I’d be happy to admit it as soon as I realize it. Hopefully a few days of dwelling will help. Cheers.
What?
It’s the dimension of weight, where the weight of 5 oranges can be more than the weight of one big orange. Weight is still weight when you are weighing multiple things together. If you don’t believe me, put 5 oranges on a scale and tell me what you see. The prior part of your comment doesn’t have anything to change this.
Hi kbog,
Sorry for taking awhile to get back to you – life got in the way… Fortunately, the additional time made me realize that I was the one who was confused as I now see very clearly the utilitarian sense of “involves more pain than” that you have been in favor of.
Where this leaves us is with two senses of “involves more pain than” and with the question of which of the two senses is the one that really matters. In this reply, I outline the two senses and then argue for why the sense that I have been in favor of is the one that really matters.
The two senses:
Suppose, for purposes of illustration, that a person who experiences 5 minor toothaches is experientially just as badly off as someone who experiences a major toothache. This supposition, of course, makes use of my sense of “involves more pain than” – the sense that analyzes “involves more pain than” as “is experientially worse than”. This sense compares two what-it’s-likes (e.g., the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-toothaches vs the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-a-major-toothache) and compares them with respect to their what-it’s-like-ness – their feel. On this sense, 5 minor toothaches all had by one person involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person in that the former is experientially just as bad as the latter.
On your sense (though not on mine), if these 5 minor toothaches were spread across 5 people, they would still involve the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person. This is because having 1 major toothache is experientially just as bad as having 5 minor toothaches (i.e. using my sense), which entitles one to claim that the 1 major toothache is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches, since they give rise to distinct what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially just as bad. At this point, it’s helpful to stipulate that one minor toothache = one base unit of pain. That is, let’s suppose that the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-one-minor-toothache is experientially as bad as any of the least experientially bad experience(s) possible. Now, since there are in effect 5 base units of pain in both cases, therefore the cases involve the same amount of pain (in your sense). It is irrelevant that the 5 base units of pain are spread among 5 people in one case. This is because it is irrelevant how those 5 base units of pain feel when experienced together since we are not comparing the cases with respect to their what-it’s-like-ness – their feel. Rather, we are comparing the cases with respect to their quantity of the base unit of pain.
Which is the sense that really matters?
I believe the sense I am in favor of is the one that really matters, and that this becomes clear when we remind ourselves why we take pain to matter in the first place.
We take pain to matter because of its negative felt character – because of how it feels. I argue that we should favor my sense of “involves more pain than” because it fully respects this fact, whereas the sense you’re in favor of goes against the spirit of this fact.
According to your sense, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as one major toothache had by one person. But doesn’t this clearly go against the spirit of the fact that pain matters solely because of how it feels? None of the 5 people feel anything remotely bad. There is simply no experience of anything remotely bad on their side of the equation. They each feel a very mild pain – unpleasant enough to be perceived to be experientially bad, but that’s it. That’s the worst what-it’s-like on their side of the equation. Yet, a bundle of 5 of these mild what-it’s-likes somehow involve the same amount of pain as one major toothache. That can only be acceptable if the felt character of the major toothache (and of pain in general) is not as important to you as the sheer quantity of very mild pains (i.e. of base units of pain). But this is against the spirit of why pain matters.
The 5000 pains are only worse if 5000 minor pains experienced by one person is equivalent to one excruciating pain. If so, then 5000 minor pains for 5000 people being equivalent to one excruciating pain doesn’t go against the badness of how things feel; at least it doesn’t seem counterintuitive to me.
Maybe you think that no amount of minor pains can ever be equally important as one excruciating pain. But that’s a question of how we evaluate and represent an individual’s well-being, not a question of interpersonal comparison and aggregation.
Hey kbog, if you don’t mind, let’s ignore my example with the 5000 pains because I think my argument can more clearly be made in terms of my toothache example since I have already laid a foundation for it. Let me restate that foundation and then state my argument in terms of my toothache example. Thanks for bearing with me.
The foundation:
Suppose 5 minor toothaches had by one person is experientially just as bad as 1 major toothache had by one person.
Given the supposition, you would claim: 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person.
Let me explain what I think is your reasoning step by step:
P1) 5 minor toothaches had by one person and 1 major toothache had by one person give rise to two different what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially JUST AS BAD. (By above supposition) (The two different what-it’s-likes are: the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-5-minor-toothaches and the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-1-major-toothache.)
P2) Therefore, we are entitled to say that 5 minor toothaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P1)
P3) 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is 5 minor toothaches, just as 5 minor toothaches had by one person is 5 minor toothaches, so there is the same quantity of minor toothaches (or same quantity of base units of pain) in both cases. (Self-evident)
P4) Therefore, we are entitled to say that 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches had by one person. (By P4)
P5) Therefore, we are entitled to claim that 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P2 and P4)
C) Therefore, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person. (By P5)
As the illustrated reasoning shows, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people involves the same amount of pain as 1 major toothache had by one person (i.e. C) only if 5 minor toothaches had by ONE person is equivalent to 1 major toothache (i.e. P2). You agree with this.
Moreover, as the illustrated reasoning also shows, the reason why 5 minor toothaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache (i.e. P2) is because they give rise to two different what-it’s-likes that are nevertheless experientially just as bad (i.e. P1). I presume you agree with this too. Call this reason “Reason E”, E for “experientially just as bad”)
Furthermore, as the illustrated reasoning shows, the reason why 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothache had by one person is DIFFERENT from the reason for why 5 minor headaches had by one person is equivalent to 1 major toothache had by one person. That is, 5 minor toothaches spread among 5 people is equivalent to 5 minor toothaches had by one person (i.e. P4) because they share the same quantity of base units of pain, namely 5, irrespective of how the 5 base units of pain are spread (i.e. P3), and NOT because they give rise to two what-it’s-likes that are experientially just as bad (as they clearly don’t). Call this reason (i.e. P3) “Reason S”, S for “same quantity of base units of pains”
Argument:
So there are these two different types of reasons underlying your equivalence claims (I will use “=” to signify “is equivalent to”:
5 MiTs/5 people = 5 MiTs/1 person = 1 MaT/1 person
........................(Reason S).................(Reason E).......................…
Now, never mind the transitivity problem that Reasons S and E create for your reasoning. Indeed, that’s not the problem I want to raise for your sense of “involves more pain.”
The problem with your sense of “involves more pain” is that it admits of Reason S as a basis for saying X involves more pain than Y. But Reason S, unlike Reason E, is against the spirit of why we take pain to matter. We take pain to matter because of the badness of how it feels, as you rightly claim. But Reason S doesn’t give a crap about how bad the pains on the two sides of the equation FEEL; it doesn’t care that 5 MiTs/1 person constitutes a pain that feels a whole lot worse than any anything on the other side of the equation. It just cares about how many base units of pain there are on each side. And, obviously, more base units of pain does not mean there is experientially worse pain precisely because the base units of pain can be spread out among many different people.
This an interesting question. Perhaps the what-it’s-like-of-going-through-an-INFINITE-number-of-a-very-mild-sort-of-pain cannot be experientially worse than the what-it’s-like-of-suffering-one-instance-of-third-degree-burns. If so, then I would think that 1 third-degree burn/1 person is morally worse than infinite mild pains/1 person. In any case, I don’t think what I think here is relevant to my argument against your utilitarian sense of “involves more pain than”.
No, both equivalencies are justified by the fact that they involve the same amount of base units of pain.
Sure it does. The presence of pain is equivalent to feeling bad. Feeling bad is precisely what is at stake here, and all that I care about.
Yes, that’s what I meant when I said “that’s a question of how we evaluate and represent an individual’s well-being, not a question of interpersonal comparison and aggregation.”
So you’re saying that just as 5 MiTs/5 people is equivalent to 5 MiTs/1 person because both sides involve the same amount of base units of pain, 5 MiTs/1 person is equivalent to 1 MaT/1 person because both sides involve the same amount of base units of pain (and not because both sides give rise to what-it’s-likes that are experientially just as bad).
My question to you then is this: On what basis are you able to say that 1 MaT/1 person involves 5 base units of pain?
Reason S cares about the amount of base units of pain there are because pain feels bad, but in my opinion, that doesn’t sufficiently show that it cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels. It doesn’t sufficiently show that it cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels because 5 base units of pain all experienced by one person feels a whole heck of a lot worse than anything felt when 5 base units of pain are spread among 5 people, yet Reason S completely ignores this difference. If Reason S truly cared about pain-qua-how-it-feels, it cannot ignore this difference.
I understand where you’re coming from though. You hold that Reason S cares about the quantity of base units of pain precisely because pain feels bad, and that this fact alone sufficiently shows that Reason S is in harmony with the fact that we take pain to matter because of how it feels (i.e. that Reason S cares about pain-qua-how-it-feels).
However, given what I just said, I think this fact alone is too weak to show that Reason S is in harmony with the fact that we take pain to matter because of how it feels. So I believe my objection stands.
Have we hit bedrock?
Because you told me that it’s the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches and you also told me that each minor toothache is 1 base unit of pain.
If you mean that it feels worse to any given person involved, yes it ignores the difference, but that’s clearly the point, so I don’t know what you’re doing here other than merely restating it and saying “I don’t agree.”
On the other hand, you do not care how many people are in pain, and you do not care how much pain someone experiences so long as there is someone else who is in more pain, so if anyone’s got to figure out whether or not they “care” enough it’s you.
You’ve pretty much been repeating yourself for the past several weeks, so, sure.
Where in supposition or the line of reasoning that I laid out earlier (i.e. P1) through to P5)) did I say that 1 major headache involves the same amount of pain as 5 minor toothaches?
I attributed that line of reasoning to you because I thought that was how you would get to C) from the supposition that 5 minor toothaches had by one person is experientially just as bad as 1 major toothache had by one person.
But you then denied that that line of reasoning represents your line of reasoning. Specifically, you denied that P1) is the basis for asserting P2). When I asked you what is your basis for P2), you assert that I told you that 1 major headache involves the same amount of pain as five minor toothaches. But where did I say this?
In any case, it would certainly help if you described your actual step by step reasoning from the supposition to C), since, apparently, I got it wrong.
I’m not merely restating the fact that Reason S ignores this difference. I am restating it as part of a further argument against your sense of “involves more pain than” or “involves the same amount of pain as”. The argument in essence goes: P1) Your sense relies on Reason S P2) Reason S does not care about pain-qua-how-it-feels (because it ignores the above stated difference). P3) We take pain to matter because of how it feels. C) Therefore, your sense is not in harmony with why pain matters (or at least why we take pain to matter).
I had to restate that Reason S ignores this difference as my support for P2, so it was not merely stated.
Both accusations are problematic.
The first accusation is not entirely true. I don’t care about how many people are in pain only in situations where I have to choose between helping, say, Amy and Susie or just Bob (i.e. situations where a person in the minority party does not overlap with anyone in the majority party). However, I would care about how many people are in pain in situations where I have to choose between helping, say, Amy and Susie or just Amy (i.e. situations where the minority party is a mere subset of the majority party). This is due to the strict pareto principle which would make Amy and Susie each suffering morally worse than just Amy suffering, but would not make Amy and Susie suffering morally worse than Bob suffering. I don’t want to get into this at this point because it’s not very relevant to our discussion. Suffice it to say that it’s not entirely true that I don’t care about how many people are in pain.
The second accusation is plain false. As I made clear in my response to Objection 2 in my post, I think who suffers matters. As a result, if I could either save one person from suffering some pain or another person from suffering a slightly less pain, I would give each person a chance of being saved in proportion to how much each has to suffer. This is what I think I should do. Ironically, your second accusation against me is precisely true of what you stand for.
In my past few replies, I have:
1) Outlined in explicit terms a line of reasoning that got from the supposition to C), which I attributed to you.
2) Highlighted that that line of reasoning appealed to Reason S.
3) On that basis, argued that your sense of “involves the same amount of pain as” goes against the spirit of why pain matters.
If that comes across to you as “just repeating myself for the past several weeks”, then I can only think that you aren’t putting enough effort into trying to understand what I’m saying.