It seems slightly ambiguous to me which of two different conceptions of “anti-speciesism” are being used here (unfortunately the term allows/encourages this confusion):
(1) “Neutral anti-speciesism”: count persons of different species’ interests no more/less than those of any other species, and maximise all interests impartially (basically utilitarianism)
(2) “Side-constraint anti-speciesism”: just as we would never discriminate, disrespect, exploit or harm black people in certain ways (even if it was for the greater good) so too we shouldn’t do analogous things to members of certain species because that would be speciesist, and we shouldn’t be racist, speciesist etc. even if it is for the greater good, impartially considered.
If anti-speciesism is being used in sense (1), i.e. in a utilitarian way which means simply not weighting person’s interests differently based on species-membership, then whether we should permit or promote the very poor owning livestock depends entirely on empirical questions about whether this is for the greater good impartially considered. So based on everything said in this post, the poor owning more livestock could be a great thing.
If anti-speciesism is being used in sense (2), then sure, we should not allow the poor to own livestock no matter the suffering averted and benefits to persons impartially considered. But I don’t find that view very attractive.
I think adopting and spreading some deontic heuristics regarding the exploitation of animals is good from a consequentialist perspective. Presumably, EAs don’t consider whether enslaving, murdering, and eating other humans “is for the greater good impartially considered”. Even putting that on the table would make EA look much more heartless and crazy than it already does, and risk spreading some very dangerous memes. Likewise, not taking a firm stand against animal exploitation as a development tool makes EA seem less serious about helping animals, and reinforces the idea that animals are here to benefit humans.
It’s true that we should promote certain heuristics after careful consideration of the consequentialist impact of doing so. That’s not what’s going on here. Assuming Zach is defending the deontic side constraint picture, no consequentialist case for being deontic has been made for this.
It’s true we should follow certain heuristics in cases where we cannot properly assess the consequentialist case (per two level consequentialism) e.g. we should eschew lying to and stealing from our friends as a default rule, even when it might appear in a given case that it’s consequentially justified, because we can’t do a consequentialist calculation about everything all the time and if we try, in certain areas, it’ll lead to disaster. That’s not what’s happening here, because the case in question is an abstract discussion of a huge policy question regarding what stance we should take in the future, with little time pressure. These are precisely the areas where we should be consequentialist if ever we should be.
If we’re actually consequentialists then the effects of the policy on the non-humans and the humans actually needs to be weighed and taken account. That’s not what the OP seems to be doing. On the second interpretation, it seems to be saying we should never allow animals to be used in this way, regardless of the costs and benefits.
As to the two considerations you mention:
EAs don’t consider whether enslaving, murdering, and eating other humans “is for the greater good impartially considered”. Even putting that on the table would make EA look much more heartless and crazy than it already does, and risk spreading some very dangerous memes.
I don’t find this to carry much weight. For almost everyone in the world, eating other humans is viewed very differently to eating animals and a fortiori to members of the global poor owning and raising a small number of animals. So the worry about “heartless and crazy” does not transfer from the human cannibalism to allowing the very poor to own livestock as assets, nor does it seem like this risks shifting people’s norms (since almost everyone not on this forum endorses this anyway).
not taking a firm stand against animal exploitation as a development tool makes EA seem less serious about helping animals, and reinforces the idea that animals are here to benefit humans.
I find it very unlikely that this is a serious consideration. Almost everyone is not a vegan, so purely in terms of considering signalling, I doubt that we are well-advised to insist that people in the developing world cannot should not own animals as assets (regardless of the balance of cost and benefits).
“That’s not what’s happening here, because the case in question is an abstract discussion of a huge policy question regarding what stance we should take in the future, with little time pressure. These are precisely the areas where we should be consequentialist if ever we should be.”
Most people’s thinking is not nearly as targeted and consequentialist as this. On my model of human psychology, supporting the exploitation of animals in service of third-world development reinforces the belief that animals are for human benefit in general (rather than in this one instance where the benefits to all sentient beings were found to outweigh the harms). Given that speciesism is responsible for the vast majority of human-caused suffering, I think we should be extremely careful about supporting animal exploitation, even when it looks net-positive at first blush.
And I’m not concerned about EA looking “heartless and crazy” by endorsing livestock as a development tool, I was just pointing out that there are certain things EA should take off the table for signalling and memetic reasons.
“I doubt that we are well-advised to insist that people in the developing world cannot should not own animals as assets (regardless of the balance of cost and benefits).”
There’s a difference between insisting that people in the developing world not own animals as assets, which I agree would be mistaken, and opposing the adoption of livestock ownership as a development strategy.
I answered some of the broader concerns above in my first reply, but I sympathize with Jesse’s concern that promoting animal ownership in the developing world makes our support for animals seem unserious. I don’t think it’s that people look at us and say “hypocrites” or insufficiently absolutist but rather that they look at us and say “ahah, even they think it’s okay to own animals, just not if you treat them badly.”
Sorry I could not respond earlier as I was traveling. The first point is somewhat about (2) and the second point is about (1). On the second point, I could flesh this out more and may in a future post but basically even if we find animal investment/ownership does help (and there’s some indication it does), I think when you factor the extremely painful deaths that most of these animals have after a pretty brief life and more so the propagation of the idea of animal ownership that significantly increases the likelihood of the sort of unambiguously bad animal agriculture industry we have in the U.S. and Europe, that is likely to be pretty easily outweighed. Maybe I’m overconfident on this but I think as soon as we consider animals’ interests equally the picture changes dramatically.
On the first point, I say somewhat because I would argue for these side constraints for consequentialist reasons. At a rough level I would argue based on revealed preferences that our upholding norms for violence against humans suggests this is consequentially useful. That suggests we should extend those same norms to animals.
It is unclear to me about the consequentialist case, but it would seem to be a subset of the poor meat-eater problem.
The post seems more in a deontic mode that use of animals in this way is exploitative and wrong regardless of the consequentialist benefit. I also find this view fairly unattractive, and I suspect many deontologists would agree: deontic theories are often ‘speciesist’, as they tend to have higher thresholds for personhood or moral concern, ones which livestock (unlike women, children, different ethnic groups, etc.) do not satisfy.
It seems slightly ambiguous to me which of two different conceptions of “anti-speciesism” are being used here (unfortunately the term allows/encourages this confusion):
(1) “Neutral anti-speciesism”: count persons of different species’ interests no more/less than those of any other species, and maximise all interests impartially (basically utilitarianism)
(2) “Side-constraint anti-speciesism”: just as we would never discriminate, disrespect, exploit or harm black people in certain ways (even if it was for the greater good) so too we shouldn’t do analogous things to members of certain species because that would be speciesist, and we shouldn’t be racist, speciesist etc. even if it is for the greater good, impartially considered.
If anti-speciesism is being used in sense (1), i.e. in a utilitarian way which means simply not weighting person’s interests differently based on species-membership, then whether we should permit or promote the very poor owning livestock depends entirely on empirical questions about whether this is for the greater good impartially considered. So based on everything said in this post, the poor owning more livestock could be a great thing.
If anti-speciesism is being used in sense (2), then sure, we should not allow the poor to own livestock no matter the suffering averted and benefits to persons impartially considered. But I don’t find that view very attractive.
I think adopting and spreading some deontic heuristics regarding the exploitation of animals is good from a consequentialist perspective. Presumably, EAs don’t consider whether enslaving, murdering, and eating other humans “is for the greater good impartially considered”. Even putting that on the table would make EA look much more heartless and crazy than it already does, and risk spreading some very dangerous memes. Likewise, not taking a firm stand against animal exploitation as a development tool makes EA seem less serious about helping animals, and reinforces the idea that animals are here to benefit humans.
It’s true that we should promote certain heuristics after careful consideration of the consequentialist impact of doing so. That’s not what’s going on here. Assuming Zach is defending the deontic side constraint picture, no consequentialist case for being deontic has been made for this.
It’s true we should follow certain heuristics in cases where we cannot properly assess the consequentialist case (per two level consequentialism) e.g. we should eschew lying to and stealing from our friends as a default rule, even when it might appear in a given case that it’s consequentially justified, because we can’t do a consequentialist calculation about everything all the time and if we try, in certain areas, it’ll lead to disaster. That’s not what’s happening here, because the case in question is an abstract discussion of a huge policy question regarding what stance we should take in the future, with little time pressure. These are precisely the areas where we should be consequentialist if ever we should be.
If we’re actually consequentialists then the effects of the policy on the non-humans and the humans actually needs to be weighed and taken account. That’s not what the OP seems to be doing. On the second interpretation, it seems to be saying we should never allow animals to be used in this way, regardless of the costs and benefits.
As to the two considerations you mention:
I don’t find this to carry much weight. For almost everyone in the world, eating other humans is viewed very differently to eating animals and a fortiori to members of the global poor owning and raising a small number of animals. So the worry about “heartless and crazy” does not transfer from the human cannibalism to allowing the very poor to own livestock as assets, nor does it seem like this risks shifting people’s norms (since almost everyone not on this forum endorses this anyway).
I find it very unlikely that this is a serious consideration. Almost everyone is not a vegan, so purely in terms of considering signalling, I doubt that we are well-advised to insist that people in the developing world cannot should not own animals as assets (regardless of the balance of cost and benefits).
“That’s not what’s happening here, because the case in question is an abstract discussion of a huge policy question regarding what stance we should take in the future, with little time pressure. These are precisely the areas where we should be consequentialist if ever we should be.”
Most people’s thinking is not nearly as targeted and consequentialist as this. On my model of human psychology, supporting the exploitation of animals in service of third-world development reinforces the belief that animals are for human benefit in general (rather than in this one instance where the benefits to all sentient beings were found to outweigh the harms). Given that speciesism is responsible for the vast majority of human-caused suffering, I think we should be extremely careful about supporting animal exploitation, even when it looks net-positive at first blush.
And I’m not concerned about EA looking “heartless and crazy” by endorsing livestock as a development tool, I was just pointing out that there are certain things EA should take off the table for signalling and memetic reasons.
“I doubt that we are well-advised to insist that people in the developing world cannot should not own animals as assets (regardless of the balance of cost and benefits).”
There’s a difference between insisting that people in the developing world not own animals as assets, which I agree would be mistaken, and opposing the adoption of livestock ownership as a development strategy.
I answered some of the broader concerns above in my first reply, but I sympathize with Jesse’s concern that promoting animal ownership in the developing world makes our support for animals seem unserious. I don’t think it’s that people look at us and say “hypocrites” or insufficiently absolutist but rather that they look at us and say “ahah, even they think it’s okay to own animals, just not if you treat them badly.”
Sorry I could not respond earlier as I was traveling. The first point is somewhat about (2) and the second point is about (1). On the second point, I could flesh this out more and may in a future post but basically even if we find animal investment/ownership does help (and there’s some indication it does), I think when you factor the extremely painful deaths that most of these animals have after a pretty brief life and more so the propagation of the idea of animal ownership that significantly increases the likelihood of the sort of unambiguously bad animal agriculture industry we have in the U.S. and Europe, that is likely to be pretty easily outweighed. Maybe I’m overconfident on this but I think as soon as we consider animals’ interests equally the picture changes dramatically.
On the first point, I say somewhat because I would argue for these side constraints for consequentialist reasons. At a rough level I would argue based on revealed preferences that our upholding norms for violence against humans suggests this is consequentially useful. That suggests we should extend those same norms to animals.
Accord.
It is unclear to me about the consequentialist case, but it would seem to be a subset of the poor meat-eater problem.
The post seems more in a deontic mode that use of animals in this way is exploitative and wrong regardless of the consequentialist benefit. I also find this view fairly unattractive, and I suspect many deontologists would agree: deontic theories are often ‘speciesist’, as they tend to have higher thresholds for personhood or moral concern, ones which livestock (unlike women, children, different ethnic groups, etc.) do not satisfy.