Thanks for writing, Nathan! I think there are two separate arguments: one says that EA is doing worse than baseline, and the other is that EA is doing worse than our shared—sometimes implicit—community standards. It’s fair to ask people to chart their expectations against baseline for almost anything, but it’s also fair to establish community norms above baseline. Some of the comments you quoted (inc. one of mine) are critiques relying on the higher standard.
While I intend to discuss this with Pete directly, my general objection is that commenters don’t discuss this as if EA is seeking to have a much higher bar and failing. They mostly discuss it as if EA is unusually bad.
If there is general agreement that EA has a much higher bar I would expect to see widely upvoted comments saying how much better EA is than comparable spaces even as it still has work to do. I don’t see that.
I think the absence of particular harms is easy to overlook, in all sorts of areas, especially in a space focused on identifying tractable problems, so I wouldn’t update the same way based on lack of positive discussion. I’ll happily go on the record and say (as a woman) that I’ve had much, much better experiences in male-dominated EA spaces than male-dominated non-EA spaces.
I think so, yes. Part of why, for example, I was and am critical of CEA’s leadership’s response to the recent sexual harassment report is because I believe we as a community generallyare often capable of and desirous of achieving a higher standard than top universities and workplaces, which I think you believe too, based on the data in this post! My guess is that we’re fundamentally on the same page, but I don’t want to assume this.
I think I probably agree yes, though I am a bit uncertain about how hard the marginal gains are past some point.
Do you think most forum commenters think that EA is doing better than many universities and workplaces? Like do you think they share your view of a significantly higher standard? Do you think if someone commented “we are doing as well as many other communities, but we have more to do” they would upvote and agree with that?
Thanks for writing, Nathan! I think there are two separate arguments: one says that EA is doing worse than baseline, and the other is that EA is doing worse than our shared—sometimes implicit—community standards. It’s fair to ask people to chart their expectations against baseline for almost anything, but it’s also fair to establish community norms above baseline. Some of the comments you quoted (inc. one of mine) are critiques relying on the higher standard.
While I intend to discuss this with Pete directly, my general objection is that commenters don’t discuss this as if EA is seeking to have a much higher bar and failing. They mostly discuss it as if EA is unusually bad.
If there is general agreement that EA has a much higher bar I would expect to see widely upvoted comments saying how much better EA is than comparable spaces even as it still has work to do. I don’t see that.
I think the absence of particular harms is easy to overlook, in all sorts of areas, especially in a space focused on identifying tractable problems, so I wouldn’t update the same way based on lack of positive discussion. I’ll happily go on the record and say (as a woman) that I’ve had much, much better experiences in male-dominated EA spaces than male-dominated non-EA spaces.
Okay :)
And what about EA compared to typical workplaces/ university spaces?
So in your head you are aiming for a significantly higher bar than top universities and workplaces?
I think so, yes. Part of why, for example, I was and am critical of CEA’s leadership’s response to the recent sexual harassment report is because I believe we as a community generally are often capable of and desirous of achieving a higher standard than top universities and workplaces, which I think you believe too, based on the data in this post! My guess is that we’re fundamentally on the same page, but I don’t want to assume this.
I think I probably agree yes, though I am a bit uncertain about how hard the marginal gains are past some point.
Do you think most forum commenters think that EA is doing better than many universities and workplaces? Like do you think they share your view of a significantly higher standard? Do you think if someone commented “we are doing as well as many other communities, but we have more to do” they would upvote and agree with that?
No idea—I don’t have nearly enough to go off of. Curious what you learn, though.
So to be clear, you don’t hold a position on whether the community actually holds the view that you do?
Like if I found another 10 comments that seem to imply that EA is unusually bad, would you agree that it’s a common view?