A couple of considerations I’ve thought about, at least for myself
(1) Fundamentally, giving helps save/improve lives, and that’s a very strong consideration that we need equally strong philosophical or practical reasons to overcome.
(2) I think value drift is a significant concern. For less engaged EAs, the risk is about becoming non-EA altogether; for more engaged EAs, it’s more about becoming someone less focused on doing good and more concerned with other considerations (e.g. status); this doesn’t have to be an explicit thing, but rather biases the way we reason and decide in a way that means we end up rationalizing choices that helps ourselves over the greater good. Giving (e.g. at the standard 10%) helps anchor against that.
(3) From a grantmaking/donor advisory perspective, I think it’s hard to have moral credibility, which can be absolutely necessary (e.g. advising grantees to put up modest salaries in their project proposals, not just to increase project runway but also the chances that our donor partners approve the funding request). And this is both psychologically and practically hard to do this if you’re not just earning more but earning far more and not giving to charity! Why would they listen to you? The LMIC grantees especially may be turned off—disillusioned, by the fact that they have to accept peanuts while those of us with power over them draw fat stacks of cash! The least we can do is donate! Relatedly, I think part of Charity Entrepreneurship’s success is absolutely down to Joey and co leading by example and taking low salaries.
(4) Runway is a legitimate consideration, especially since there are a lot of potentially impactful things one can do but which won’t be funded upfront (so you need to do it on savings, prove viability and then get it funded). However, I don’t think this is sufficient to outweigh points 1-3.
(5) In general, I think it’s not useful at all to compare with how much others are earning—that only leads to resentment, unhappiness, and less impactful choices. For myself, the vast majority of my friends are non-EAs; we have similar backgrounds (elite education, worked for the Singapore government as policy officers/scholars at one point or another) and yet since leaving government I’ve had a riskier career, earn far less, have fewer savings, and am forced to delay having a family/kids because of all those reasons. All of this is downstream of choices I’ve made an EA, particularly in avoiding job offers that paid very well but which didn’t have impact (or in fact, had negative impact). Is the conclusion I’m supposed to draw that I’ve made a mistake with my life? I don’t think so, because statistically speaking, some random African kid out there is alive as a result of my donations (and hopefully, my work), and that’s good enough for me.
Thanks for these thoughts. It’s nice to get such detailed engagement. I’m going to try to respond point by point.
(2) - I’m not particularly worried about value drift, and I think there are more effective ways to guard against this than earning to give (e.g. living with people who share your values, talking about EA stuff regularly with people you care about). I think I have quite a lot of evidence in favour of me being pretty resilient to value drift (though I often change my mind about what is important intentionally).
(3) I think this is interesting, though I don’t think that I share this view re being taken seriously. I think that I, and many people I know, have taken actions that they found much harder than donating (e.g. I live in a different country than my partner and in a pretty suboptimal timezone because I think I can do my work better from my current location, I work a lot of hours, I spend a lot of time doing tasks that I find emotionally challenging, I’ve been in situations that I found extremely stressful for ~0 credit). To be clear, I don’t think that I am particularly worthy of praise—but I do think that I score reasonably well on “moral credibility”. Also, I have concerns about this kind of signalling and think it often leads to concerning dynamics—I don’t want EA Funds grantees to feel pressured into taking shoestring salaries. When I was at CE, I remember there being a lot of pressure to take extremely low salaries despite many successful charity founders thinking this was a bad idea. It also led to weird epistemic effects (though I hear things have improved substantially).
(4) I don’t think that runway and grants from EA funders are as fungible as you do. I can talk a bit more about this if that’s useful. I guess that this general point (3) is where we have substantive disagreement. It seems likely to me that I can have much more impact through my career than through my donations—and that having more runway could substantially increase the value of my career. If it doesn’t increase the value of my career and I am wrong, then I can donate later (which I don’t think incurs much in the way of losses from a NTist perspective, but it’s more confusing from a LTist one). To be clear, I think that I’d like to build up 12-24 months of runway, and right now, I have substantially less than that—I am not talking about being able to retire in 10 years or anything.
(5) I think for me, the comparison stuff doesn’t really lead to resentment/unhappiness. It wasn’t clear from my post, but one of the reasons that I made this comparison was because many of my friends do very altruistically valuable work and earn substantially more than I do. They are extremely talented and hard-working (and lucky), and whilst this doesn’t mean that I could get a highly-paying job that generated a lot of altruistic value, I think talking to them regularly has given me an understanding of the kind of work that they do and what it might take to enter a similar role, and it feels doable for me to enter similar roles in a relatively short amount of time (on my inside view). I also have friends that I think are similarly smart/hardworking etc., who earn a lot more money than me in purely for-profit roles. Again, I don’t resent any of these people, and the comparison seems pretty useful to me.
For what it’s worth, I think saving up runway is a no brainer.
During my one year as a tech consultant, I put aside half each month and donated another 10%. The runway I built made the decision for me to quit my job and pursue direct work much easier.
In the downtime between two career moves, it allowed me to spend my time pursuing whatever I wanted without worrying about how to pay the bills. This gave me time to research and write about snakebites, ultimately leading to Open Phil recommending a $500k investment into a company working on snakebite diagnostics.
I later came upon great donation opportunity to a fish welfare charity, which I gave a large part of my runway to and wouldn’t have been able to support if I had given all my money away two years prior.
Had I given more away sooner I think it would be clearer to myself and others that I was in fact altruistically motivated. I also think my impact would have been lower. Impact over image.
EDIT: Actually it’s probably a some-brainer a lot of the time, seeing as I currently have little runway and am taking a shoestring salary. The reason I take a shoestring salary is to increase my organization’s runway, which is valuable for the same reasons that increasing one’s personal runway is. You don’t have to spend as much time worrying about how your org is going to pay the bills and you can instead focus on impact.
I’m probably misunderstanding you, but I’m confused by (3) and (5). They seem like they somewhat contradict each other. Remove the emotive language and (3) is saying that people in positions of power should donate and/or have lower salaries because donors or grantees might be upset in comparison, and (5) is saying that we shouldn’t compare our own earnings and donations to others.
These claims contradict each other in the following ways:
If we take (5) as a given, (3) no longer makes sense. If it truly is the case that comparing earnings is never useful, we should not expect (or want) grantees or donors to compare earnings.
Hypothetically, maybe your position might be more like “oh it’s clearly bad to compare earnings, but we live in a flawed world with flawed people.” But if that were the case, then acceding to people’s comparisons is essentially enabling a harmful activity, and maybe we should have a higher bar for enabling others’ negative proclivities.
If we take (3) as the primary constraint (Donors/grantees respect us less if we don’t visibly make sacrifices for the Good), then it seems like (5) is very relevant. Pointing out ways in which we sacrificed earnings to take on EA jobs just seems like a really good reply to concerns that we are being overpaid in absolute terms, or are only doing EA jobs for the money. At least in my case, I don’t recall any of our large donors complaining about my salary, but if I did, “I took a >>70% pay cut originally to do EA work” [1] seems like a reasonable response that I predict to mollify most donors.
Though I think it’s closer to ~40-50% now at my current salary, adjusting for inflation? On the other hand, if I stayed and/or switched jobs in tech I’d probably have had salary increases substantially above inflation as well, so it’s kind of confusing what my actual counterfactual is[2]. But I’m also not sure how much I should adjust for liking EA work and being much more motivated at it, which seems like substantial non-monetary compensation. But EA work is also more stressful and in some ways depressing, so hazard pay is reasonable, so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
In part because I think if I wasn’t doing EA work the most obvious alternative I’d be aiming for high-variance earning-to-give, which means high equity value in expectation but ~0 payout in the median case.
A couple of considerations I’ve thought about, at least for myself
(1) Fundamentally, giving helps save/improve lives, and that’s a very strong consideration that we need equally strong philosophical or practical reasons to overcome.
(2) I think value drift is a significant concern. For less engaged EAs, the risk is about becoming non-EA altogether; for more engaged EAs, it’s more about becoming someone less focused on doing good and more concerned with other considerations (e.g. status); this doesn’t have to be an explicit thing, but rather biases the way we reason and decide in a way that means we end up rationalizing choices that helps ourselves over the greater good. Giving (e.g. at the standard 10%) helps anchor against that.
(3) From a grantmaking/donor advisory perspective, I think it’s hard to have moral credibility, which can be absolutely necessary (e.g. advising grantees to put up modest salaries in their project proposals, not just to increase project runway but also the chances that our donor partners approve the funding request). And this is both psychologically and practically hard to do this if you’re not just earning more but earning far more and not giving to charity! Why would they listen to you? The LMIC grantees especially may be turned off—disillusioned, by the fact that they have to accept peanuts while those of us with power over them draw fat stacks of cash! The least we can do is donate! Relatedly, I think part of Charity Entrepreneurship’s success is absolutely down to Joey and co leading by example and taking low salaries.
(4) Runway is a legitimate consideration, especially since there are a lot of potentially impactful things one can do but which won’t be funded upfront (so you need to do it on savings, prove viability and then get it funded). However, I don’t think this is sufficient to outweigh points 1-3.
(5) In general, I think it’s not useful at all to compare with how much others are earning—that only leads to resentment, unhappiness, and less impactful choices. For myself, the vast majority of my friends are non-EAs; we have similar backgrounds (elite education, worked for the Singapore government as policy officers/scholars at one point or another) and yet since leaving government I’ve had a riskier career, earn far less, have fewer savings, and am forced to delay having a family/kids because of all those reasons. All of this is downstream of choices I’ve made an EA, particularly in avoiding job offers that paid very well but which didn’t have impact (or in fact, had negative impact). Is the conclusion I’m supposed to draw that I’ve made a mistake with my life? I don’t think so, because statistically speaking, some random African kid out there is alive as a result of my donations (and hopefully, my work), and that’s good enough for me.
Thanks for these thoughts. It’s nice to get such detailed engagement. I’m going to try to respond point by point.
(2) - I’m not particularly worried about value drift, and I think there are more effective ways to guard against this than earning to give (e.g. living with people who share your values, talking about EA stuff regularly with people you care about). I think I have quite a lot of evidence in favour of me being pretty resilient to value drift (though I often change my mind about what is important intentionally).
(3) I think this is interesting, though I don’t think that I share this view re being taken seriously. I think that I, and many people I know, have taken actions that they found much harder than donating (e.g. I live in a different country than my partner and in a pretty suboptimal timezone because I think I can do my work better from my current location, I work a lot of hours, I spend a lot of time doing tasks that I find emotionally challenging, I’ve been in situations that I found extremely stressful for ~0 credit). To be clear, I don’t think that I am particularly worthy of praise—but I do think that I score reasonably well on “moral credibility”. Also, I have concerns about this kind of signalling and think it often leads to concerning dynamics—I don’t want EA Funds grantees to feel pressured into taking shoestring salaries. When I was at CE, I remember there being a lot of pressure to take extremely low salaries despite many successful charity founders thinking this was a bad idea. It also led to weird epistemic effects (though I hear things have improved substantially).
(4) I don’t think that runway and grants from EA funders are as fungible as you do. I can talk a bit more about this if that’s useful. I guess that this general point (3) is where we have substantive disagreement. It seems likely to me that I can have much more impact through my career than through my donations—and that having more runway could substantially increase the value of my career. If it doesn’t increase the value of my career and I am wrong, then I can donate later (which I don’t think incurs much in the way of losses from a NTist perspective, but it’s more confusing from a LTist one). To be clear, I think that I’d like to build up 12-24 months of runway, and right now, I have substantially less than that—I am not talking about being able to retire in 10 years or anything.
(5) I think for me, the comparison stuff doesn’t really lead to resentment/unhappiness. It wasn’t clear from my post, but one of the reasons that I made this comparison was because many of my friends do very altruistically valuable work and earn substantially more than I do. They are extremely talented and hard-working (and lucky), and whilst this doesn’t mean that I could get a highly-paying job that generated a lot of altruistic value, I think talking to them regularly has given me an understanding of the kind of work that they do and what it might take to enter a similar role, and it feels doable for me to enter similar roles in a relatively short amount of time (on my inside view). I also have friends that I think are similarly smart/hardworking etc., who earn a lot more money than me in purely for-profit roles. Again, I don’t resent any of these people, and the comparison seems pretty useful to me.
For what it’s worth, I think saving up runway is a no brainer.
During my one year as a tech consultant, I put aside half each month and donated another 10%. The runway I built made the decision for me to quit my job and pursue direct work much easier.
In the downtime between two career moves, it allowed me to spend my time pursuing whatever I wanted without worrying about how to pay the bills. This gave me time to research and write about snakebites, ultimately leading to Open Phil recommending a $500k investment into a company working on snakebite diagnostics.
I later came upon great donation opportunity to a fish welfare charity, which I gave a large part of my runway to and wouldn’t have been able to support if I had given all my money away two years prior.
Had I given more away sooner I think it would be clearer to myself and others that I was in fact altruistically motivated. I also think my impact would have been lower. Impact over image.
EDIT: Actually it’s probably a some-brainer a lot of the time, seeing as I currently have little runway and am taking a shoestring salary. The reason I take a shoestring salary is to increase my organization’s runway, which is valuable for the same reasons that increasing one’s personal runway is. You don’t have to spend as much time worrying about how your org is going to pay the bills and you can instead focus on impact.
(I work with Caleb. Opinions are my own.)
Thank you for your comment.
I’m probably misunderstanding you, but I’m confused by (3) and (5). They seem like they somewhat contradict each other. Remove the emotive language and (3) is saying that people in positions of power should donate and/or have lower salaries because donors or grantees might be upset in comparison, and (5) is saying that we shouldn’t compare our own earnings and donations to others.
These claims contradict each other in the following ways:
If we take (5) as a given, (3) no longer makes sense. If it truly is the case that comparing earnings is never useful, we should not expect (or want) grantees or donors to compare earnings.
Hypothetically, maybe your position might be more like “oh it’s clearly bad to compare earnings, but we live in a flawed world with flawed people.” But if that were the case, then acceding to people’s comparisons is essentially enabling a harmful activity, and maybe we should have a higher bar for enabling others’ negative proclivities.
If we take (3) as the primary constraint (Donors/grantees respect us less if we don’t visibly make sacrifices for the Good), then it seems like (5) is very relevant. Pointing out ways in which we sacrificed earnings to take on EA jobs just seems like a really good reply to concerns that we are being overpaid in absolute terms, or are only doing EA jobs for the money. At least in my case, I don’t recall any of our large donors complaining about my salary, but if I did, “I took a >>70% pay cut originally to do EA work” [1] seems like a reasonable response that I predict to mollify most donors.
Though I think it’s closer to ~40-50% now at my current salary, adjusting for inflation? On the other hand, if I stayed and/or switched jobs in tech I’d probably have had salary increases substantially above inflation as well, so it’s kind of confusing what my actual counterfactual is[2]. But I’m also not sure how much I should adjust for liking EA work and being much more motivated at it, which seems like substantial non-monetary compensation. But EA work is also more stressful and in some ways depressing, so hazard pay is reasonable, so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
In part because I think if I wasn’t doing EA work the most obvious alternative I’d be aiming for high-variance earning-to-give, which means high equity value in expectation but ~0 payout in the median case.