I like what this is getting at, and also I personally disprefer many of the specific “controversial/exclusionary” speakers at manifest being discussed (and would expect things be better if some had not attended), but I think this proposal might need revision to really work more broadly.
First, I’m pretty sure it is common lingo to have “controversial” be used in the way it is in this article. If this were a news story in The New York Times, I’d expect it would be much more likely to use the word “controversial” than the word “exclusionary”.
If the New York Times and WSJ both had front-page stories about “Conference draws attention for controversial speakers”, I’d expect this to be more about radical right-wing or left-wing beliefs than I would the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Second, I’m nervous that in practice that “exclusionary” is not as clean a concept as we’d like it to be. It’s arguably too low a bar in many cases, and too high in others. I understand this to be arguing that there are some beliefs are disliked by others, enough to convince others to attend the event.
But I could imagine many ideas in this category. If there were a speaker talking about how to secure Taiwan, arguably Chinese nationalists would feel uncomfortable attending and argue that that is exclusionary. Many people are uncomfortable with basic ideas in effective altruism and might not attend conferences with prominent EAs—they might argue that that EA is exclusionary.
I’m not sure if one could argue that many beliefs themselves lead to people being uncomfortable—this seems more like a function of both the belief and the culture at some moment in time.
For example, say that we did live in some world where all discussion of “the value of nuclear research” was highly coupled with hateful takes against some group or other. In that case, this might then become exclusionary, in a way that could, in many cases, subsequently make sense to draw less attention to.
All that said, personally, I agree with what the post is grappling with, I’m just nervous about the idea of trying to change terminology without thinking it through.
First, I’m pretty sure it is common lingo to have “controversial” be used in the way it is in this article. If this were a news story in The New York Times, I’d expect it would be much more likely to use the word “controversial” than the word “exclusionary”.
If the New York Times and WSJ both had front-page stories about “Conference draws attention for controversial speakers”, I’d expect this to be more about radical right-wing or left-wing beliefs than I would the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Yeah, and I mostly think this is a mixture of confusion and cowardice on their part, frankly. To the extent that they really believe the controversy is itself the problem, I think they’re wrong. To the extent that they’re saying “controversial” because it’s unarguably literally true and allows them to imply “bad” without having to actually say it, I think it’s an attempt to project a false neutrality, to take a side without appearing to take a side. Some react to that by saying “let our neutrality not be false”, some by “let us not project neutrality”. Either way has more respect from me.
But I could imagine many ideas in this category. If there were a speaker talking about how to secure Taiwan, arguably Chinese nationalists would feel uncomfortable attending and argue that that is exclusionary. Many people are uncomfortable with basic ideas in effective altruism and might not attend conferences with prominent EAs—they might argue that that EA is exclusionary.
Yeah, for sure I expect disagreement about what’s exclusionary, and when we should stand by something even though it’s exclusionary. My main point was to point out that lots of disagreements aren’t exclusionary, and choosing how we handle potentially-exclusionary discourse doesn’t need to put any of that at stake. (There’s room to disagree with this distinction, but that’s the distinction I was trying to draw.)
I like what this is getting at, and also I personally disprefer many of the specific “controversial/exclusionary” speakers at manifest being discussed (and would expect things be better if some had not attended), but I think this proposal might need revision to really work more broadly.
First, I’m pretty sure it is common lingo to have “controversial” be used in the way it is in this article. If this were a news story in The New York Times, I’d expect it would be much more likely to use the word “controversial” than the word “exclusionary”.
If the New York Times and WSJ both had front-page stories about “Conference draws attention for controversial speakers”, I’d expect this to be more about radical right-wing or left-wing beliefs than I would the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Second, I’m nervous that in practice that “exclusionary” is not as clean a concept as we’d like it to be. It’s arguably too low a bar in many cases, and too high in others. I understand this to be arguing that there are some beliefs are disliked by others, enough to convince others to attend the event.
But I could imagine many ideas in this category. If there were a speaker talking about how to secure Taiwan, arguably Chinese nationalists would feel uncomfortable attending and argue that that is exclusionary. Many people are uncomfortable with basic ideas in effective altruism and might not attend conferences with prominent EAs—they might argue that that EA is exclusionary.
I’m not sure if one could argue that many beliefs themselves lead to people being uncomfortable—this seems more like a function of both the belief and the culture at some moment in time.
For example, say that we did live in some world where all discussion of “the value of nuclear research” was highly coupled with hateful takes against some group or other. In that case, this might then become exclusionary, in a way that could, in many cases, subsequently make sense to draw less attention to.
All that said, personally, I agree with what the post is grappling with, I’m just nervous about the idea of trying to change terminology without thinking it through.
Yeah, and I mostly think this is a mixture of confusion and cowardice on their part, frankly. To the extent that they really believe the controversy is itself the problem, I think they’re wrong. To the extent that they’re saying “controversial” because it’s unarguably literally true and allows them to imply “bad” without having to actually say it, I think it’s an attempt to project a false neutrality, to take a side without appearing to take a side. Some react to that by saying “let our neutrality not be false”, some by “let us not project neutrality”. Either way has more respect from me.
Yeah, for sure I expect disagreement about what’s exclusionary, and when we should stand by something even though it’s exclusionary. My main point was to point out that lots of disagreements aren’t exclusionary, and choosing how we handle potentially-exclusionary discourse doesn’t need to put any of that at stake. (There’s room to disagree with this distinction, but that’s the distinction I was trying to draw.)