Thanks for saying what you think and raising concerns that matter to you. I have a concern that this kind of post pushes towards what is and isn’t acceptable in EA in ways that are symmetric rather than antisymmetric with respect to the truth, and doesn’t support truth-seeking.
I wish this post were more about disagreements with claims or arguments about how longtermism does not support pronatalism (or perhaps this kind of pronatalism?) or digging into concerns that the community including pronatalist elements (or these kind) would be bad even if it made sense under longtermist priorities (or regardless of whether it did?).
I appreciate people raising concerns and saying what they think, but I also want to push us to engage with many parts of strange or uncomfortable or bad-seeming (or indeed bad!) worldviews when we evaluate them. (I think Nathan does a good job here of saying what evidence he does and doesn’t see for concern around money in EA, and his feelings about it, regardless of whether they fit with the evidence. I think this post could benefit from having that kind of orientation).
In particular, I don’t want it to be intra-EA politically unacceptable to explore questions raised by pronatalists or find their arguments compelling, that seems like a really bad outcome to me.
The main reason for the post is not to start a discussion on whether or not the Collins’ brand of pronatalism is appropriate or a logical conclusion to longtermism. I already have a fairly settled view on this, and if it’s the case that we sit here and discuss the merits of this type of pronatalism and suggest that it is a natural conclusion to longtermism, I’m simply going to reject longtermism.
The main reason for the post is to serve as a PSA, to bring attention to a faction that may be at least opportunistically looking to gain influence within the EA space for their own goals, and not for the truth-seeking goals that you deem important, and let others decide whether they think this is what they want for EA, or whether this is the type of EA they want to be associated with. I’ll note that as a result of this post, someone kindly pointed me (and other readers) to this post’s existence. It has since been heavily downvoted, and a comment engaging with the object level points were left. (This has additional benefits for those of us who don’t want anything to do with that brand of pronatalism, like having a place to point to next time some journalist associates these viewpoints with EA).
If a flat earther faction (especially one now successfully funded by the SFF) expressed a desire to become a dominant faction in the EA space to further their aims, I would make a similar post about this, and I don’t think I should be expected to engage with debunking flat-earth viewpoints before making this post. It sounds like you disagree?
I really appreciate your straightforwardness and honesty here. It would be very easy for you to give lip service to Chana’s goals, but you said what you believe and I respect that. … However I very much disagree with your conclusion. Most issues are not like flat-earthers. Most of the time you will have a much better time debating against the ideas you disagree with than writing PSAs about them.
This link explains some of my thinking in the area. Some of the ideas are applicable, but please don’t take the obvious analogy too directly. (Also: apologies for the length of the piece. In an ideal world I would write more of my own thoughts.)
Pronatalist.org is Collins’ organization that received funding from the SFF. I can see how that was unclear, apologies.
expressed a desire to become a dominant faction in the EA space to further their aims, I would make a similar post about this, and I don’t think I should be expected to engage with debunking flat-earth viewpoints before making this post. It sounds like you disagree?
I think the crux here is that everyone involved thinks it’s obvious flat-earthers are wrong and we’re working from the shared (implicit) assumption.
I think that’s not the case here (I don’t even know what pro-natalism specifically claims or involves other than “more babies is good, pushing society in that direction is good”, and I assume there’s a huge range of thinking within that, some more libertarian, some more statist, some more racist, some more futurist, etc), and so I don’t want to base a discussion on that as a shared assumption, and don’t want to port in that assumption without addressing it.
Maybe you think it is equally obvious and that we should all think so, and if EA started debating flat earth you’d be (correctly) very concerned, some things are just obvious, but I’ve never figured out how to have a good conversation around “this is so obvious we shouldn’t have a conversation about it” even though I think that’s sometimes a reasonable point to make.
In my read, this post is not about whether having children (literal ‘pro’ ‘natalism’) is correct or not. I think having a debate about that is great, and I’m inclined towards the ‘yes’ side.
It’s about pointing to signs suggesting the existence of power-seeking faction within EA, that (by their own admission) is attempting to coopt the movement for their own aims.
(Why the hedging in the previous paragraph: stating that your faction is “now 100X more likely to become a real, dominant faction” is not quite stating your intention to make it dominate, it just suggests it.)
I think coopting a broad altruism movement for particular people’s pet causes (or selfish aims) is bad. There is a very real possibility that EA will be coopted by power-seekers and become another club for career-conscious people who want to get ahead. I support good attempts to prevent that.
This pointing is asymmetrical with respect to the question of whether the purported ‘faction’ in question is in fact a faction, and is in fact trying to coopt the movement.
I’ve stumbled here after getting more interested in the object-level debate around pronatalism. I am glad you posted this because, in the abstract, I think it’s worthwhile to point out where someone may not be engaging in good faith within our community.
Having said that, I wish you had framed the Collins’ actions in a little more good faith yourself. I do not consider that one quoted tweet to be evidence that of an “opportunistic power grab”. I think it’s probably a bit unhealthy to see our movement in terms of competing factions, and to seek wins for one’s own faction through strategic means rather than through open debate.
But I’m not sure Malcolm Collins is quite there, on the evidence you’ve said. It seems like he’s happy that (according to him) his own favored cause area will get more attention (in the months since this has been posted, I don’t think his prediction has proven correct). I don’t think that’s the same as actively seeking a power grab—it might just be a slightly cynical, though realistic, view that even in a community that tries to promote healthy epistemics, sociological forces are going to have an influence on what we do.
Thanks for saying what you think and raising concerns that matter to you. I have a concern that this kind of post pushes towards what is and isn’t acceptable in EA in ways that are symmetric rather than antisymmetric with respect to the truth, and doesn’t support truth-seeking.
I wish this post were more about disagreements with claims or arguments about how longtermism does not support pronatalism (or perhaps this kind of pronatalism?) or digging into concerns that the community including pronatalist elements (or these kind) would be bad even if it made sense under longtermist priorities (or regardless of whether it did?).
I appreciate people raising concerns and saying what they think, but I also want to push us to engage with many parts of strange or uncomfortable or bad-seeming (or indeed bad!) worldviews when we evaluate them. (I think Nathan does a good job here of saying what evidence he does and doesn’t see for concern around money in EA, and his feelings about it, regardless of whether they fit with the evidence. I think this post could benefit from having that kind of orientation).
In particular, I don’t want it to be intra-EA politically unacceptable to explore questions raised by pronatalists or find their arguments compelling, that seems like a really bad outcome to me.
The main reason for the post is not to start a discussion on whether or not the Collins’ brand of pronatalism is appropriate or a logical conclusion to longtermism. I already have a fairly settled view on this, and if it’s the case that we sit here and discuss the merits of this type of pronatalism and suggest that it is a natural conclusion to longtermism, I’m simply going to reject longtermism.
The main reason for the post is to serve as a PSA, to bring attention to a faction that may be at least opportunistically looking to gain influence within the EA space for their own goals, and not for the truth-seeking goals that you deem important, and let others decide whether they think this is what they want for EA, or whether this is the type of EA they want to be associated with. I’ll note that as a result of this post, someone kindly pointed me (and other readers) to this post’s existence. It has since been heavily downvoted, and a comment engaging with the object level points were left. (This has additional benefits for those of us who don’t want anything to do with that brand of pronatalism, like having a place to point to next time some journalist associates these viewpoints with EA).
If a flat earther faction (especially one now successfully funded by the SFF) expressed a desire to become a dominant faction in the EA space to further their aims, I would make a similar post about this, and I don’t think I should be expected to engage with debunking flat-earth viewpoints before making this post. It sounds like you disagree?
I really appreciate your straightforwardness and honesty here. It would be very easy for you to give lip service to Chana’s goals, but you said what you believe and I respect that. … However I very much disagree with your conclusion. Most issues are not like flat-earthers. Most of the time you will have a much better time debating against the ideas you disagree with than writing PSAs about them.
This link explains some of my thinking in the area. Some of the ideas are applicable, but please don’t take the obvious analogy too directly. (Also: apologies for the length of the piece. In an ideal world I would write more of my own thoughts.)
Seconding JP’s point that I appreciate you being clear about your goals. Not sure what organization on that list is a flat earth one?
Thanks!
Pronatalist.org is Collins’ organization that received funding from the SFF. I can see how that was unclear, apologies.
Interested in your view here!
I think the crux here is that everyone involved thinks it’s obvious flat-earthers are wrong and we’re working from the shared (implicit) assumption.
I think that’s not the case here (I don’t even know what pro-natalism specifically claims or involves other than “more babies is good, pushing society in that direction is good”, and I assume there’s a huge range of thinking within that, some more libertarian, some more statist, some more racist, some more futurist, etc), and so I don’t want to base a discussion on that as a shared assumption, and don’t want to port in that assumption without addressing it.
Maybe you think it is equally obvious and that we should all think so, and if EA started debating flat earth you’d be (correctly) very concerned, some things are just obvious, but I’ve never figured out how to have a good conversation around “this is so obvious we shouldn’t have a conversation about it” even though I think that’s sometimes a reasonable point to make.
In my read, this post is not about whether having children (literal ‘pro’ ‘natalism’) is correct or not. I think having a debate about that is great, and I’m inclined towards the ‘yes’ side.
It’s about pointing to signs suggesting the existence of power-seeking faction within EA, that (by their own admission) is attempting to coopt the movement for their own aims.
(Why the hedging in the previous paragraph: stating that your faction is “now 100X more likely to become a real, dominant faction” is not quite stating your intention to make it dominate, it just suggests it.)
I think coopting a broad altruism movement for particular people’s pet causes (or selfish aims) is bad. There is a very real possibility that EA will be coopted by power-seekers and become another club for career-conscious people who want to get ahead. I support good attempts to prevent that.
This pointing is asymmetrical with respect to the question of whether the purported ‘faction’ in question is in fact a faction, and is in fact trying to coopt the movement.
I’ve stumbled here after getting more interested in the object-level debate around pronatalism. I am glad you posted this because, in the abstract, I think it’s worthwhile to point out where someone may not be engaging in good faith within our community.
Having said that, I wish you had framed the Collins’ actions in a little more good faith yourself. I do not consider that one quoted tweet to be evidence that of an “opportunistic power grab”. I think it’s probably a bit unhealthy to see our movement in terms of competing factions, and to seek wins for one’s own faction through strategic means rather than through open debate.
But I’m not sure Malcolm Collins is quite there, on the evidence you’ve said. It seems like he’s happy that (according to him) his own favored cause area will get more attention (in the months since this has been posted, I don’t think his prediction has proven correct). I don’t think that’s the same as actively seeking a power grab—it might just be a slightly cynical, though realistic, view that even in a community that tries to promote healthy epistemics, sociological forces are going to have an influence on what we do.