(I wouldn’t have done that, and at some level I feel sad that they did it—but I think that is a bit norm violating to express publicly, and I’m trying to do it softly and only because it may help to avoid misunderstanding.)
However, I think Manifest has the right to choose who to platform just as people have the right to choose who to talk to. I do think this platforming decision is something Manifest’s natural constituents can rightfully complain about, but I think it’s kind of inappropriate for the EA forum at large to weigh in on. (Though I support people’s right to be inappropriate this way! I just would try not to do it myself and might gently advise other people to try not to.)
I feel like EA is close enough to Manifest (open Phil funding, EA organisers involved, advertising on the forum) that its fair enough for the forum to weigh in. Why do you think it’s inappropriate for the forum to weigh in? Are you trying to curtail our free speech ;) (Jokes)
I don’t really understand the argument about “the right” to speak or “the right” for manifest to platform whoever they want”. Of course they can do what they want, and it’s their org they can invite who they want. and then we can talk about it? This seems like a non-argument to me.
I’m not aware of Manifest (or even Manifold) receiving funding from Open Phil, although Manifold did receive significant funding from an EA-linked funder (FTXFF).
Totally agree that people can do whatever they want!
But: suppose there were a big online discussion about the clothing choices of a public intellectual (and while slightly quirky and not super flattering, these obviously weren’t being chosen for the sake of being provocative). Then I think I’d feel like I cared about their privacy, and that it would be kinder for people to refrain from this discussion. Not that they wouldn’t have a right to have it—but that it might ultimately be more aligned with their values not to (even if they’re totally right about the clothes).
I feel kind of similarly here. Manifest made some choices. They seem to me like they may have been mistakes, but it’s important to me that they have the right to make their own choices (whether or not those are mistakes). Some of the discourse feels like it’s an ungraceful attempt to muscle in on their autonomy—like the vibe is “you shouldn’t have had the right to invite him”, even if people don’t actually say that—and thereby more likely to create an environment where people don’t actually feel free. (Not all of the criticism has felt to me like that. I actually support a certain amount of tactfully-done criticism in this case. And I’ve upvoted a number of contributions on both “sides” of this debate, where I felt like they were adding something useful.)
(It’s more plausible that Manifest’s choices are causing indirect harm than that the intellectual’s clothing choices are, so this analogy isn’t perfect, and I’m not trying to say it’s as clear-cut as that case, and it’s possible this value could be outweighed by other values, which is why I’m in favour of some of the criticism. But I do think it’s not a “non-argument”, and I’m giving an analogy where I think it’s clearer cut in order to demonstrate that it’s at least a legitimate consideration.)
Yep I agree with all of this nice one I like the way you put it. I haven’t noticed so many posts/comment which I see as trying to “Muscle” Manifest, but there is some of that sentiment I think for sure.
I agree that Manifest was platforming him.
(I wouldn’t have done that, and at some level I feel sad that they did it—but I think that is a bit norm violating to express publicly, and I’m trying to do it softly and only because it may help to avoid misunderstanding.)
However, I think Manifest has the right to choose who to platform just as people have the right to choose who to talk to. I do think this platforming decision is something Manifest’s natural constituents can rightfully complain about, but I think it’s kind of inappropriate for the EA forum at large to weigh in on. (Though I support people’s right to be inappropriate this way! I just would try not to do it myself and might gently advise other people to try not to.)
I feel like EA is close enough to Manifest (open Phil funding, EA organisers involved, advertising on the forum) that its fair enough for the forum to weigh in. Why do you think it’s inappropriate for the forum to weigh in? Are you trying to curtail our free speech ;) (Jokes)
I don’t really understand the argument about “the right” to speak or “the right” for manifest to platform whoever they want”. Of course they can do what they want, and it’s their org they can invite who they want. and then we can talk about it? This seems like a non-argument to me.
I’m not aware of Manifest (or even Manifold) receiving funding from Open Phil, although Manifold did receive significant funding from an EA-linked funder (FTXFF).
Totally agree that people can do whatever they want!
But: suppose there were a big online discussion about the clothing choices of a public intellectual (and while slightly quirky and not super flattering, these obviously weren’t being chosen for the sake of being provocative). Then I think I’d feel like I cared about their privacy, and that it would be kinder for people to refrain from this discussion. Not that they wouldn’t have a right to have it—but that it might ultimately be more aligned with their values not to (even if they’re totally right about the clothes).
I feel kind of similarly here. Manifest made some choices. They seem to me like they may have been mistakes, but it’s important to me that they have the right to make their own choices (whether or not those are mistakes). Some of the discourse feels like it’s an ungraceful attempt to muscle in on their autonomy—like the vibe is “you shouldn’t have had the right to invite him”, even if people don’t actually say that—and thereby more likely to create an environment where people don’t actually feel free. (Not all of the criticism has felt to me like that. I actually support a certain amount of tactfully-done criticism in this case. And I’ve upvoted a number of contributions on both “sides” of this debate, where I felt like they were adding something useful.)
(It’s more plausible that Manifest’s choices are causing indirect harm than that the intellectual’s clothing choices are, so this analogy isn’t perfect, and I’m not trying to say it’s as clear-cut as that case, and it’s possible this value could be outweighed by other values, which is why I’m in favour of some of the criticism. But I do think it’s not a “non-argument”, and I’m giving an analogy where I think it’s clearer cut in order to demonstrate that it’s at least a legitimate consideration.)
Yep I agree with all of this nice one I like the way you put it. I haven’t noticed so many posts/comment which I see as trying to “Muscle” Manifest, but there is some of that sentiment I think for sure.