My own concerns on this thread have been centered around the offered salary not being enough for a fairly basic standard of living in some people’s life circumstances (e.g., people with financial responsibility for dependents, people in the US with significant medical issues), rather than viewing it as a discount from “market rate.” For instance,my initial suggestion in response to the salary range was that “covering special financial needs of people so they can take high impact / low salary roles” could be a mixed meta/object-level funder purpose to promote diversity and inclusion within EA.
Unlike the class of people who are being asked to consider a heavy discount from “market rate,” people in this category are drawing dead at the outset—no amount of engagement with the pre-founding process will change (e.g.) how much childcare costs. So it’s hard to justify asking them to go through a process that would be known as a dead end for them if salary info were disclosed upfront. Unfortunately, neither childcare nor medical providers can be paid in impact. So one concern with a delayed-disclosure approach is that I don’t think it is particularly respectful of the time, energy, and emotions of people in those situations.
Thank you for posting this, Joey. I think people too often talk about things like this in the abstract, not knowing the realities of the market. Two considerations I have when considering salary:
Counterfactuals: Money, at the end of the day, is a limited resource. When considering the counterfactuals, I personally would feel unethical accepting a super high salary from CE, as I think the counterfactual of this money would be, e.g., one less high-impact organization being founded. In the early days, some of our charities started with just $25K-$50K grants; I can’t imagine myself using this money for my salary. Some people say, “Give founders more money for their salaries,” but what if this money means one less highly-impactful organization (like LEEP, FEM, FWI) not being started? As the donor would choose to make sure a person has an EA-standard salary and not put the money into starting another organization? There is significant flexibility in terms of what the salary will be in different countries and circumstances (e.g., one of the co-founders having dependents), but if this is secured (the needs of the founder are secured), then every additional dollar needs to be thought of in counterfactuals. And this is how most of the CE community thinks.
What It Takes to Live a Good Life Money-wise: People think CE staff are paid small salaries, while I, as CE Staff, am paid a London market-rate salary + I receive benefits like a small donation bonus, equipment allowance, and training allowance. I feel overall very happy. I mean, with an average market salary, you can live a super good life in London: rent a room, save for retirement, help your mom in Poland, and go to theatres and Billie Eilish concerts :). So this is a very lavish lifestyle compared to the people and animals we’re helping.
Those need to be adjusted for COL though (including that someone in the UK benefits from a modern social welfare state in the way that someone in the US does not). That is not saying that the US candidate should expect a better standard of living, only that the UK standard of living simply costs more in the US.
I don’t think the US is an edge case given that IIRC 30 to 35 percent of EAs on the survey live here. I’m OK with the possibility that being a CE incubatee may not be realistic for certain people in the US, but that would still be sad and should be openly discussed.
For a candidate based in the US, its not clear why mostly UK based reference classes are the best choice. On mobile right now, but a quick look suggests the median salary in the US is about 55K USD and 80K in Washington DC (somewhat analogous to London). I do not think US candidates need as much of an uplift from UK as those numbers might suggest, but they are a sanity check for my view that UK reference ranges don’t apply well to US candidates.
I agree that EA jobs aren’t really an appropriate reference class for my concern.
The reference class I had in the back of my head for my comment was the minimum wage for the non-Bay city in which I live, augmented for the near-universal understanding that the legal minimum wage isn’t a livable wage. That put me at 30K legal minimum plus 10K uplift = 40K livable wage for most, with recognition for special needs. It will also need an uplift for health insurance for many candidates. So I would judge a range of 40-60K generally viable for basic living expenses for a candidate where I live. Not so much 25-45K.
Your source on median UK salary says “median annual pay for full-time employees was £33,000 for the tax year ending on 5 April 2022”.
Since then we’ve seen record wage increases. In the 18 months since April 2022 annual wage growth has been between 5% and 8.5%. I’m not sure if we can simply apply average wage growth to the national median wage, but it seems likely that the UK median full-time wage is now in the mid-30,000s.
This still admits the broader point about EA salaries inhabiting a different world.
My own concerns on this thread have been centered around the offered salary not being enough for a fairly basic standard of living in some people’s life circumstances (e.g., people with financial responsibility for dependents, people in the US with significant medical issues), rather than viewing it as a discount from “market rate.” For instance,my initial suggestion in response to the salary range was that “covering special financial needs of people so they can take high impact / low salary roles” could be a mixed meta/object-level funder purpose to promote diversity and inclusion within EA.
Unlike the class of people who are being asked to consider a heavy discount from “market rate,” people in this category are drawing dead at the outset—no amount of engagement with the pre-founding process will change (e.g.) how much childcare costs. So it’s hard to justify asking them to go through a process that would be known as a dead end for them if salary info were disclosed upfront. Unfortunately, neither childcare nor medical providers can be paid in impact. So one concern with a delayed-disclosure approach is that I don’t think it is particularly respectful of the time, energy, and emotions of people in those situations.
It might be helpful to add some useful reference classes here as I think it’s often forgotten how unusual EA salaries are relative to other fields.
Average GDP of the world: £11,000
London’s living wage: £21,800
Median full-time UK employees: £26,800
Average salary nonprofit jobs: £31,700
The average annual salary in London: £39,000
Average salary nonprofit London: £39,600
Average CE employee salary: £39,300
Entry-level EA job: £48,000
Average EA job: £80,000
Thank you for posting this, Joey. I think people too often talk about things like this in the abstract, not knowing the realities of the market. Two considerations I have when considering salary:
Counterfactuals: Money, at the end of the day, is a limited resource. When considering the counterfactuals, I personally would feel unethical accepting a super high salary from CE, as I think the counterfactual of this money would be, e.g., one less high-impact organization being founded. In the early days, some of our charities started with just $25K-$50K grants; I can’t imagine myself using this money for my salary. Some people say, “Give founders more money for their salaries,” but what if this money means one less highly-impactful organization (like LEEP, FEM, FWI) not being started? As the donor would choose to make sure a person has an EA-standard salary and not put the money into starting another organization? There is significant flexibility in terms of what the salary will be in different countries and circumstances (e.g., one of the co-founders having dependents), but if this is secured (the needs of the founder are secured), then every additional dollar needs to be thought of in counterfactuals. And this is how most of the CE community thinks.
What It Takes to Live a Good Life Money-wise: People think CE staff are paid small salaries, while I, as CE Staff, am paid a London market-rate salary + I receive benefits like a small donation bonus, equipment allowance, and training allowance. I feel overall very happy. I mean, with an average market salary, you can live a super good life in London: rent a room, save for retirement, help your mom in Poland, and go to theatres and Billie Eilish concerts :). So this is a very lavish lifestyle compared to the people and animals we’re helping.
Those need to be adjusted for COL though (including that someone in the UK benefits from a modern social welfare state in the way that someone in the US does not). That is not saying that the US candidate should expect a better standard of living, only that the UK standard of living simply costs more in the US.
I don’t think the US is an edge case given that IIRC 30 to 35 percent of EAs on the survey live here. I’m OK with the possibility that being a CE incubatee may not be realistic for certain people in the US, but that would still be sad and should be openly discussed.
For a candidate based in the US, its not clear why mostly UK based reference classes are the best choice. On mobile right now, but a quick look suggests the median salary in the US is about 55K USD and 80K in Washington DC (somewhat analogous to London). I do not think US candidates need as much of an uplift from UK as those numbers might suggest, but they are a sanity check for my view that UK reference ranges don’t apply well to US candidates.
I agree that EA jobs aren’t really an appropriate reference class for my concern.
The reference class I had in the back of my head for my comment was the minimum wage for the non-Bay city in which I live, augmented for the near-universal understanding that the legal minimum wage isn’t a livable wage. That put me at 30K legal minimum plus 10K uplift = 40K livable wage for most, with recognition for special needs. It will also need an uplift for health insurance for many candidates. So I would judge a range of 40-60K generally viable for basic living expenses for a candidate where I live. Not so much 25-45K.
Your source on median UK salary says “median annual pay for full-time employees was £33,000 for the tax year ending on 5 April 2022”.
Since then we’ve seen record wage increases. In the 18 months since April 2022 annual wage growth has been between 5% and 8.5%. I’m not sure if we can simply apply average wage growth to the national median wage, but it seems likely that the UK median full-time wage is now in the mid-30,000s.
This still admits the broader point about EA salaries inhabiting a different world.