… EAs calling themselves ‘center-left’ and that apparently make 80% of EA according to Rethink Priorities surveys
Roughly 80% (76.6%) consider themselves left or center left, of which 36.8% consider themselves “Left”, while 39.8% consider themselves “Center left” (so quite similar).
Thanks David, I was thinking about this survey. I guess my point still stands—a leftist EA in Scandinavia doesn’t mean the same thing as a leftist in the US, and my guess is that the majority of what these EAs call ‘left’ would be seen as center-left or even moderate right-wing in other countries (such as France or Sweden).
Results don’t vary so dramatically across most countries in our data, with none of the countries with the largest number of EAs showing less than ~35% identifying as “Left”.
The majority of EAs and the majority of EA left/center-leftists are outside the US
David can presumably answer this with the cross-tabs. My guess is that French and Scandinavian EAs also say they are left wing more frequently than right wing.
Also, while you’re right there are geographical differences between countries along the left-right axis, I don’t think you can summarize it as ‘Americans are more right wing’. On many issues US leftists are much more extreme than europeans.
‘On many issues US leftists are much more extreme than europeans. ’ Do you have data for this?
I recall, but can’t find a Financial Times article from year or two ago which gave polling showing that Dem voters in the US appear to be slightly more left-wing on social issues (other than abortion) than Labour voters in the UK. That supports “left is left-er in the US on social issues.” But this was outweighed by conservatives voters in the UK being FAR to the left of Republicans on social issues, so it also supports “US more right-wing overall. And the cliché is that the UK is a right-wing outlier by Western European standards (though I haven’t seen hard data backing that up, and I suspect that insofar as it is true, we’re talking economic left rather than social).
I think left-leaning Americans are often keener on a specific set of taboos around talking in a sufficiently “politically correct/woke”* way. But that is not really the same thing as being more left-wing on substantive issues, not even social issues. (I’m not very keen on that way of talking, but I do believe in trans inclusion, except maybe in some sport, probably support open borders and less restrictive drug laws, probably reject retributivism about punishment, am pro-choice, at least neutral to mildly favourable on deliberately trying to employ more women and people of colour in positions of influence etc.)
*I hate these terms, but there is no non-pejorative equivalent and everyone knows roughly what I mean.
I didn’t downvote you, but I would guess those who did were probably objecting to this
“Center left” (so quite similar)
Self-identified leftists, myself included, generally see modern liberalism as a qualitatively different ideology. Imagine someone at Charity Navigator[1] offhandedly describing EA as “basically the same as us”. Now imagine that the longtermism discourse had gotten so bad that basically every successful EA organization could expect to experience periodic coup attempts, and “they’re basically Charity Navigator” was the canonical way to insult people on the other side. That’s what “left = very liberal” looks like from here.
It sounds like you are reading my comment as saying that “center left” is very similar to “left”. But I think it’s pretty clear from the full quote that that’s not what I’m saying.
The OP says that EA is 80% “center-left”. I correct them, and say that EA is 36.8% left and 39.8% “Center left.”
The “(so quite similar)” here refers to the percentages 36.8%and 39.8% (indeed, these are likely not even statistically significant differences).
I can see how, completely in the abstract, one could read the claim as being that “Left” and “Center left” are similar ideologies. But, in context, it only makes sense for me to be making the observation that the percentages of “Left” and “Center left” are quite similar (challenging OP’s claim that EA is all Center left). If I were asserting that “Left” and “Center left” are “quite similar”, then I’d be minimising my own claim (many EAs are “Left” not merely “Center left”).
That said, I’m not sure that mistake is the reason for the downvote, since my other comment also got downvoted. And that one just:
Shows the breakdown by countries
Confirms Larks’ guess that “French and Scandinavian EAs also say they are left wing more frequently than right wing.”
Adds that French EAs are more likely to say they are “Left” than “Center left”.
Roughly 80% (76.6%) consider themselves left or center left, of which 36.8% consider themselves “Left”, while 39.8% consider themselves “Center left” (so quite similar).
Thanks David, I was thinking about this survey. I guess my point still stands—a leftist EA in Scandinavia doesn’t mean the same thing as a leftist in the US, and my guess is that the majority of what these EAs call ‘left’ would be seen as center-left or even moderate right-wing in other countries (such as France or Sweden).
It’s worth noting that:
Results don’t vary so dramatically across most countries in our data, with none of the countries with the largest number of EAs showing less than ~35% identifying as “Left”.
The majority of EAs and the majority of EA left/center-leftists are outside the US
David can presumably answer this with the cross-tabs. My guess is that French and Scandinavian EAs also say they are left wing more frequently than right wing.
Also, while you’re right there are geographical differences between countries along the left-right axis, I don’t think you can summarize it as ‘Americans are more right wing’. On many issues US leftists are much more extreme than europeans.
‘On many issues US leftists are much more extreme than europeans. ’ Do you have data for this?
I recall, but can’t find a Financial Times article from year or two ago which gave polling showing that Dem voters in the US appear to be slightly more left-wing on social issues (other than abortion) than Labour voters in the UK. That supports “left is left-er in the US on social issues.” But this was outweighed by conservatives voters in the UK being FAR to the left of Republicans on social issues, so it also supports “US more right-wing overall. And the cliché is that the UK is a right-wing outlier by Western European standards (though I haven’t seen hard data backing that up, and I suspect that insofar as it is true, we’re talking economic left rather than social).
I think left-leaning Americans are often keener on a specific set of taboos around talking in a sufficiently “politically correct/woke”* way. But that is not really the same thing as being more left-wing on substantive issues, not even social issues. (I’m not very keen on that way of talking, but I do believe in trans inclusion, except maybe in some sport, probably support open borders and less restrictive drug laws, probably reject retributivism about punishment, am pro-choice, at least neutral to mildly favourable on deliberately trying to employ more women and people of colour in positions of influence etc.)
*I hate these terms, but there is no non-pejorative equivalent and everyone knows roughly what I mean.
Confirmed. And not only that, but French EAs are more likely to say that they are Left, rather than Center left.
I think this is responding to a comment by Larks, not me.
You’re right sorry. Will move it!
I’m curious why this post got −3 worth of downvotes (at time of writing). It seems like a pretty straightforward statement of our results.
I didn’t downvote you, but I would guess those who did were probably objecting to this
Self-identified leftists, myself included, generally see modern liberalism as a qualitatively different ideology. Imagine someone at Charity Navigator[1] offhandedly describing EA as “basically the same as us”. Now imagine that the longtermism discourse had gotten so bad that basically every successful EA organization could expect to experience periodic coup attempts, and “they’re basically Charity Navigator” was the canonical way to insult people on the other side. That’s what “left = very liberal” looks like from here.
before they started doing impact ratings
It sounds like you are reading my comment as saying that “center left” is very similar to “left”. But I think it’s pretty clear from the full quote that that’s not what I’m saying.
The OP says that EA is 80% “center-left”. I correct them, and say that EA is 36.8% left and 39.8% “Center left.”
The “(so quite similar)” here refers to the percentages 36.8% and 39.8% (indeed, these are likely not even statistically significant differences).
I can see how, completely in the abstract, one could read the claim as being that “Left” and “Center left” are similar ideologies. But, in context, it only makes sense for me to be making the observation that the percentages of “Left” and “Center left” are quite similar (challenging OP’s claim that EA is all Center left). If I were asserting that “Left” and “Center left” are “quite similar”, then I’d be minimising my own claim (many EAs are “Left” not merely “Center left”).
That said, I’m not sure that mistake is the reason for the downvote, since my other comment also got downvoted. And that one just:
Shows the breakdown by countries
Confirms Larks’ guess that “French and Scandinavian EAs also say they are left wing more frequently than right wing.”
Adds that French EAs are more likely to say they are “Left” than “Center left”.
Now that you point it out I agree that’s the more plausible reading, but it genuinely wasn’t the one that occurred to me first.