Is phenomenality itself necessary/on the causal path here?
I have no idea what the causal path is, or even whether causation is the right conceptual framework here. But it has no bearing on whether phenomenal experiences exist: they’re particular things out there in the world (so to speak), not causal roles in a model.
Note also that the information in or states of a computer (including robots and AIs) also play a similar role for the computer.
It plays a similar role, for very generous values of “similar”, in the computer qua physical system, sure. And I am perfectly happy to grant that “I” qua human organism am almost certainly a causally closed physical system like any other. (Or rather, the joint me-environment system is). But that’s not what I’m talking about.
For “us”, everything goes through our access consciousness.
I’m not talking about access consciousness either! That’s just one particular sort of mental state in a vast landscape. The existence of the landscape—as a really existing thing with really existing contents, not a model - is the heart of the mystery.
what’s the extra explanatory work phenomenality is doing here?
My whole point is that it doesn’t do explanatory work, and expecting it to is a conceptual confusion. The sun’s luminosity does not explain its composition, the fact that looking at it causes retinal damage does not explain its luminosity, the firing of sensory nerves does not explain the damage, and the qualia that constitute “hurting to look at” do not explain the brain states which cause them.
Phenomenality is raw data: the thing to be explained. Not what I do, not what I say, not the exact microstate of my brain, not even the structural features of my mind—but the stuff being structured, and the fact there is any.
If you define phenomenality just by certain physical states, effects or responses, or functionalist or causal abstractions thereof
I don’t define phenomenality! I point at it. It’s that thing, right there, all the time. The stuff in virtue of which all my inferential knowledge is inferential knowledge about something, and not just empty formal structure. The relata which introspective thought relates[1]. The stuff at the bottom of the logical positivists’ glass. You know, the thing.
And again, I am only pointing at particular examples, not defining or characterizing or even trying to offer a conceptual prototype: qualia need not have anything to do with introspection, linguistic thought, inference, or any other sort of higher cognition. In particular, “seeing my computer screen” and “being aware of seeing my computer screen” are not the same quale.
But it seems to me that phenomenal aspects themselves aren’t the raw data by which we know things. If you accept the causal closure of the physical, non-phenomenal aspects of our discriminations and cognitive responses are already enough to explain how we know things, or the phenomenal aspects just are physical aspects (possibly abstracted to functions or dispositions), which would be consistent with illusionism.
Or, do you mean that knowing itself is not entirely physical?
I think the causal closure of the physical is very, very likely, given the evidence. I do not accept it as axiomatic. But if it turns out that it implies illusionism, i.e. that it implies the evidence does not exist, then it is self-defeating and should be rejected.
Or, do you mean that knowing itself is not entirely physical?
I am referring to my phenomenology, not (what I believe to be) the corresponding behavioral dispositions. E.g. so far as I know my visual field can be simultaneously all blue and all dark, but never all blue and all red. We have a clear path towards explaining why that would be true, and vague hints that it might be possible to explain why, given that it’s true, I can think the corresponding thoughts and say the corresponding words. But explaining how I can make that judgement is not an explanation of why I have visual qualia to begin with.
Whether these are also physical in some broader sense of the word, I can’t say.
I have no idea what the causal path is, or even whether causation is the right conceptual framework here. But it has no bearing on whether phenomenal experiences exist: they’re particular things out there in the world (so to speak), not causal roles in a model.
It plays a similar role, for very generous values of “similar”, in the computer qua physical system, sure. And I am perfectly happy to grant that “I” qua human organism am almost certainly a causally closed physical system like any other. (Or rather, the joint me-environment system is). But that’s not what I’m talking about.
I’m not talking about access consciousness either! That’s just one particular sort of mental state in a vast landscape. The existence of the landscape—as a really existing thing with really existing contents, not a model - is the heart of the mystery.
My whole point is that it doesn’t do explanatory work, and expecting it to is a conceptual confusion. The sun’s luminosity does not explain its composition, the fact that looking at it causes retinal damage does not explain its luminosity, the firing of sensory nerves does not explain the damage, and the qualia that constitute “hurting to look at” do not explain the brain states which cause them.
Phenomenality is raw data: the thing to be explained. Not what I do, not what I say, not the exact microstate of my brain, not even the structural features of my mind—but the stuff being structured, and the fact there is any.
I don’t define phenomenality! I point at it. It’s that thing, right there, all the time. The stuff in virtue of which all my inferential knowledge is inferential knowledge about something, and not just empty formal structure. The relata which introspective thought relates[1]. The stuff at the bottom of the logical positivists’ glass. You know, the thing.
And again, I am only pointing at particular examples, not defining or characterizing or even trying to offer a conceptual prototype: qualia need not have anything to do with introspection, linguistic thought, inference, or any other sort of higher cognition. In particular, “seeing my computer screen” and “being aware of seeing my computer screen” are not the same quale.
But it seems to me that phenomenal aspects themselves aren’t the raw data by which we know things. If you accept the causal closure of the physical, non-phenomenal aspects of our discriminations and cognitive responses are already enough to explain how we know things, or the phenomenal aspects just are physical aspects (possibly abstracted to functions or dispositions), which would be consistent with illusionism.
Or, do you mean that knowing itself is not entirely physical?
I think the causal closure of the physical is very, very likely, given the evidence. I do not accept it as axiomatic. But if it turns out that it implies illusionism, i.e. that it implies the evidence does not exist, then it is self-defeating and should be rejected.
I am referring to my phenomenology, not (what I believe to be) the corresponding behavioral dispositions. E.g. so far as I know my visual field can be simultaneously all blue and all dark, but never all blue and all red. We have a clear path towards explaining why that would be true, and vague hints that it might be possible to explain why, given that it’s true, I can think the corresponding thoughts and say the corresponding words. But explaining how I can make that judgement is not an explanation of why I have visual qualia to begin with.
Whether these are also physical in some broader sense of the word, I can’t say.