.I don’t really think it’s this. I think it is “I don’t want people associating me with people or ideas like that so I’d like you to stop please”.
It might be what you say for some people, but that doesn’t ring true for my case (at all). (But also, compared to all the people who complained about stuff at Manifest or voiced negative opinions from the sidelines as forum users, I’m pretty sure I’m in the 33% that felt the least strongly and had fewer items to pick at.)
But let’s take your case, that means you think that on the margin some notion of considerateness/kindness/agreeableness is more important than truth-seeking. Is that right?
I don’t like this framing/way of thinking about it.
For one thing, I’m not sure if I want to concede the point that it is the “maximally truth-seeking” thing to risk that a community evaporatively cools itself along the lines we’re discussing.
Secondly, I think the issues around Manifest I objected to weren’t directly about “what topics are people allowed to talk about?.”
If some person with a history of considerateness and thoughtfulness wanted to do a presentation on HBD at Manifest, or (to give an absurd example) if Sam Harris (who I think is better than average at handling delicate conversations like that) wanted to interview Douglas Murray again in the context of Manifest, I’d be like “ehh, not sure that’s a good idea, but okay...” And maybe also “Well, if you’re going to do this, at least think very carefully about how to communicate about why you’re talking about this/what the goal of the session is.” (It makes a big difference whether the framing of the session is “We know this isn’t a topic most people are interested in, but we’ve had some people who are worried that if we cannot discuss every topic there is, we might lose what’s valuable about this community, so this year, we decided to host a session on this; we took steps x, y, and z to make sure this won’t become a recruiting ground for racists;” or whether the framing is “this is just like every other session.”) [But maybe this example is beside the point, I’m not actually sure whether the objectionable issue was sessions on HBD/intelligence differences among groups, or whether it was more just people talking about it during group conversations.]
By contrast, if people with a history of racism or with close ties to racists attend the conference and it’s them who want to talk about HBD, I’m against it. Not directly because of what’s being discussed, but because of how and by whom. (But again, it’s not my call to make and I’m just stating what I would do/what I think would lead to better outcomes.)
(I also thought people who aren’t gay using the word “fag” sounded pretty problematic. Of course, this stuff can be moderated case-by-case and maybe a warning makes more sense than an immediate ban. Also, in fairness, it seems like the conference organizers would’ve agreed with that and they simply didn’t hear the alleged incident when it allegedly happened.)
For one thing, I’m not sure if I want to concede the point that it is the “maximally truth-seeking” thing to risk that a community evaporatively cools itself along the lines we’re discussing.
Another way to frame it is through the concept of collective intelligence. What is good for developing individual intelligence may not be good for developing collective intelligence.
Think, for example, of schools that pit students against each other and place a heavy emphasis on high-stakes testing to measure individual student performance. This certainly motivates people to personally develop their intellectual skills; just look at how much time, e.g. Chinese children are spending on school. But is this better for the collective intelligence?
High-stakes testing often leads to a curriculum that is narrowly focused on intelligence-focused skills that are easily measurable by tests. This can limit the development of broader, harder-to-measure social skills that are vital for collective intelligence, such as communication, group brainstorming, deescalation, keeping your ego in check, empathy...
And such a testing-focused environment can discourage collaborative learning experiences because the focus is on individual performance. This reduction in group learning opportunities and collaboration limits overall knowledge growth.
It can exacerbate educational inequalities by disproportionately disadvantaging students from lower socio-economic backgrounds, who may have less access to test preparation resources or supportive learning environments. This can lead to a segmented education system where collective intelligence is stifled because not all members have equal opportunities to contribute and develop.
And what about all the work that needs to be done that is not associated with high intelligence? Students who might not excel in what a given culture considers high-intelligence (such as the arts, practical skills, or caretaking work) may feel undervalued and disengage from contributing their unique perspectives. Worse, if they continue to pursue individual intelligence, you might end up with a workforce that has a bad division of labor, despite having people that theoretically could have taken up those niches. Like what’s happening in the US:
If you want to have more truth-seeking, you first have to make sure that your society functions. (E.g. if everyone is a college professor, who’s making the food?) To have a collective be maximally truth-seeking in the long run, you have to not solely focus on truth-seeking.
I would guess that the manifest crowd meaningfully adds to the decisionmaking capabilities of EA by sometimes coming up with very valuable ideas, so I think I disagree with the conclusion here.
It might be what you say for some people, but that doesn’t ring true for my case (at all). (But also, compared to all the people who complained about stuff at Manifest or voiced negative opinions from the sidelines as forum users, I’m pretty sure I’m in the 33% that felt the least strongly and had fewer items to pick at.)
I don’t like this framing/way of thinking about it.
For one thing, I’m not sure if I want to concede the point that it is the “maximally truth-seeking” thing to risk that a community evaporatively cools itself along the lines we’re discussing.
Secondly, I think the issues around Manifest I objected to weren’t directly about “what topics are people allowed to talk about?.”
If some person with a history of considerateness and thoughtfulness wanted to do a presentation on HBD at Manifest, or (to give an absurd example) if Sam Harris (who I think is better than average at handling delicate conversations like that) wanted to interview Douglas Murray again in the context of Manifest, I’d be like “ehh, not sure that’s a good idea, but okay...” And maybe also “Well, if you’re going to do this, at least think very carefully about how to communicate about why you’re talking about this/what the goal of the session is.” (It makes a big difference whether the framing of the session is “We know this isn’t a topic most people are interested in, but we’ve had some people who are worried that if we cannot discuss every topic there is, we might lose what’s valuable about this community, so this year, we decided to host a session on this; we took steps x, y, and z to make sure this won’t become a recruiting ground for racists;” or whether the framing is “this is just like every other session.”) [But maybe this example is beside the point, I’m not actually sure whether the objectionable issue was sessions on HBD/intelligence differences among groups, or whether it was more just people talking about it during group conversations.]
By contrast, if people with a history of racism or with close ties to racists attend the conference and it’s them who want to talk about HBD, I’m against it. Not directly because of what’s being discussed, but because of how and by whom. (But again, it’s not my call to make and I’m just stating what I would do/what I think would lead to better outcomes.)
(I also thought people who aren’t gay using the word “fag” sounded pretty problematic. Of course, this stuff can be moderated case-by-case and maybe a warning makes more sense than an immediate ban. Also, in fairness, it seems like the conference organizers would’ve agreed with that and they simply didn’t hear the alleged incident when it allegedly happened.)
Another way to frame it is through the concept of collective intelligence. What is good for developing individual intelligence may not be good for developing collective intelligence.
Think, for example, of schools that pit students against each other and place a heavy emphasis on high-stakes testing to measure individual student performance. This certainly motivates people to personally develop their intellectual skills; just look at how much time, e.g. Chinese children are spending on school. But is this better for the collective intelligence?
High-stakes testing often leads to a curriculum that is narrowly focused on intelligence-focused skills that are easily measurable by tests. This can limit the development of broader, harder-to-measure social skills that are vital for collective intelligence, such as communication, group brainstorming, deescalation, keeping your ego in check, empathy...
And such a testing-focused environment can discourage collaborative learning experiences because the focus is on individual performance. This reduction in group learning opportunities and collaboration limits overall knowledge growth.
It can exacerbate educational inequalities by disproportionately disadvantaging students from lower socio-economic backgrounds, who may have less access to test preparation resources or supportive learning environments. This can lead to a segmented education system where collective intelligence is stifled because not all members have equal opportunities to contribute and develop.
And what about all the work that needs to be done that is not associated with high intelligence? Students who might not excel in what a given culture considers high-intelligence (such as the arts, practical skills, or caretaking work) may feel undervalued and disengage from contributing their unique perspectives. Worse, if they continue to pursue individual intelligence, you might end up with a workforce that has a bad division of labor, despite having people that theoretically could have taken up those niches. Like what’s happening in the US:
If you want to have more truth-seeking, you first have to make sure that your society functions. (E.g. if everyone is a college professor, who’s making the food?)
To have a collective be maximally truth-seeking in the long run, you have to not solely focus on truth-seeking.
I would guess that the manifest crowd meaningfully adds to the decisionmaking capabilities of EA by sometimes coming up with very valuable ideas, so I think I disagree with the conclusion here.