I would like a proper poll of EAs and what they want here. In particular how they trade off sexual freedom and being harmed. I am very uncertain what this poll would show.
Agree. I would also want a poll of EA-adjacent people of their view of EA here or people who went to one EA meetup and never came back, if it could be done, since I think the community right now may have a selection effect inflating support for sleeping around.
One set says: OCB overstepped the mark severely, he should have known better, I am devastated, this is a huge problem that needs to be solved promptly at a community level. We need to kill our darlings, like polyamory and sleeping around in the community as a norm.
Another set says: I refuse to accept any sort of restriction on who I flirt with/sleep with/date in the EA community, even a restriction that would have prevented OCB from having a flirty relationship with the woman in question.
(I could be reading it all wrong; tell me what you see.)
Yep I see that divide a bit myself, but I think it’s important not too rely on binary distinctions too much.
My view is that there is a subset of groups/areas within EA that have much of their social lives and identities tied up in the movement. These seem to be the people defending flirting/dating etc.
That being said a lot of them are the old guard, and have done and continue to do a lot of the best work in the movement. I think it’s important we try to find a reasonable compromise and reconcile these differences.
I think everyone agrees OCB overstepped (he’s admitted as much) and people are of different opinion on how much blood they’re after.
This, along with the time article, are seen as proof of a “problem” that needs a “solution.”
This thread offers a potential solution. It asks the question: would you be willing to enforce a taboo against (most?) heterosexual relationships in the community in order to almost totally eliminate sexual misconduct?
The overwhelming response is a resounding no. It doesn’t appeal to anyone. Totally throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There’s a continuum: uncomfortable/awkward, inappropriate (misconduct), harassment, assault .
In the US at least, assault is criminal so that’s the bare minimum amount of enforcement and done at the federal/legal level. OCB was accused of something between misconduct and harassments I think. I think everyone agrees that harassment and assault is bad. We would like to eliminate all misconduct but what is and isn’t appropriate really becomes subjective quick. And as we’ve seen from this thread there is no appetite to project people from the merely uncomfortable.
So I don’t think there is any “solution” because this isn’t a problem that can be “solved.” Yes, we can always “do better” because the issue can never really 100% go away. The conversation should revolve around what the community’s preferred trade-offs are.
I think you’re misstating what the post actually says, but
The overwhelming response is a resounding no
seems wrong. The one poll shows overwhelming support for the recommendation.
I think the side that doesn’t want to give up sleeping around is being louder in the comments but if you look at agreevotes of the more prominent comments on each side, the side that’s agreeing with this post is seeing much more support than the side that’s against it.
You’re absolutely right, I missed that poll. Thanks for pointing it out.
It has very hedged language: “strongly recommend considering refraining” which might technically make the poll totally silly but I imagine people voted on the view the poll was representing (I mean, technically who would vote against just ‘considering’ something?).
I don’t know how to initiate polls. Would love to see one broken down by gender and self-reported “status” in addition to the equivalent recommendation with gender-neutral language. It takes two for each instance of “sleeping around” after all.
I mean this proposal is a conjuction of a lot of recommendations some of which seem reasonable some of which seem unreasonable to me, so I abstained ?(despite being against discouraging casual relationships more broadly)
I would like a proper poll of EAs and what they want here. In particular how they trade off sexual freedom and being harmed. I am very uncertain what this poll would show.
Agree. I would also want a poll of EA-adjacent people of their view of EA here or people who went to one EA meetup and never came back, if it could be done, since I think the community right now may have a selection effect inflating support for sleeping around.
Yeah I would really like that. And indeed what do people in the global south think? What do religious folks in EA think, etc etc etc.
I agree. I feel like there are two totally different sets of people and opinions on this thread vs https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/QMee23Evryqzthcvn/a-statement-and-an-apology#comments and it’s making my head spin a bit.
Could you clarify which two sets you’re seeing? A bit confused by this comment.
One set says: OCB overstepped the mark severely, he should have known better, I am devastated, this is a huge problem that needs to be solved promptly at a community level. We need to kill our darlings, like polyamory and sleeping around in the community as a norm.
Another set says: I refuse to accept any sort of restriction on who I flirt with/sleep with/date in the EA community, even a restriction that would have prevented OCB from having a flirty relationship with the woman in question.
(I could be reading it all wrong; tell me what you see.)
Yep I see that divide a bit myself, but I think it’s important not too rely on binary distinctions too much.
My view is that there is a subset of groups/areas within EA that have much of their social lives and identities tied up in the movement. These seem to be the people defending flirting/dating etc.
That being said a lot of them are the old guard, and have done and continue to do a lot of the best work in the movement. I think it’s important we try to find a reasonable compromise and reconcile these differences.
I think everyone agrees OCB overstepped (he’s admitted as much) and people are of different opinion on how much blood they’re after.
This, along with the time article, are seen as proof of a “problem” that needs a “solution.”
This thread offers a potential solution. It asks the question: would you be willing to enforce a taboo against (most?) heterosexual relationships in the community in order to almost totally eliminate sexual misconduct?
The overwhelming response is a resounding no. It doesn’t appeal to anyone. Totally throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There’s a continuum: uncomfortable/awkward, inappropriate (misconduct), harassment, assault .
In the US at least, assault is criminal so that’s the bare minimum amount of enforcement and done at the federal/legal level. OCB was accused of something between misconduct and harassments I think. I think everyone agrees that harassment and assault is bad. We would like to eliminate all misconduct but what is and isn’t appropriate really becomes subjective quick. And as we’ve seen from this thread there is no appetite to project people from the merely uncomfortable.
So I don’t think there is any “solution” because this isn’t a problem that can be “solved.” Yes, we can always “do better” because the issue can never really 100% go away. The conversation should revolve around what the community’s preferred trade-offs are.
I think you’re misstating what the post actually says, but
seems wrong. The one poll shows overwhelming support for the recommendation.
I think the side that doesn’t want to give up sleeping around is being louder in the comments but if you look at agreevotes of the more prominent comments on each side, the side that’s agreeing with this post is seeing much more support than the side that’s against it.
Ah, the silent majority and the vocal minority.
You’re absolutely right, I missed that poll. Thanks for pointing it out.
It has very hedged language: “strongly recommend considering refraining” which might technically make the poll totally silly but I imagine people voted on the view the poll was representing (I mean, technically who would vote against just ‘considering’ something?).
I don’t know how to initiate polls. Would love to see one broken down by gender and self-reported “status” in addition to the equivalent recommendation with gender-neutral language. It takes two for each instance of “sleeping around” after all.
I mean this proposal is a conjuction of a lot of recommendations some of which seem reasonable some of which seem unreasonable to me, so I abstained ?(despite being against discouraging casual relationships more broadly)