Strong downvoted because I find this statement repugnant “I put about as much weight on it as the idea that the interests of the Aryan race should be lexicographically preferred to the interests of non-Aryans.”
Why go there? You don’t do yourself or animal welfare proponents any favors. Make the argument in a less provocative way.
We know conclusively that human experience is the same. On the animal front there are very many datapoints (mind complexity, brain size, behavior) which are priors that at least push us towards some kind of heirachialism.
I have a lot of respect for most pro-animal arguments, but why go this way?
Hierarchicalism, as Ariel presents it, is based solely on species membership, where humans are prioritized simply because they are humans. See here (bold emphasis mine):
So, the argument you’re making about mind complexity and behavior goes beyond the species-based hierarchicalism Ariel refers to:
We know conclusively that human experience is the same. On the animal front there are very many datapoints (mind complexity, brain size, behavior) which are priors that at least push us towards some kind of heirachialism.
While I understand the discomfort with the Aryan vs. non-Aryan analogy, striking analogies like this can sometimes help expose problematic reasoning. I feel like it’s a common approach in moral philosophy. But, I recognize that these comparisons are emotionally charged, and it’s important to use them carefully to avoid alienating others.
I feel bad that my comment made you (and a few others, judging by your comment’s agreevotes) feel bad.
As JackM points out, that snarky comment wasn’t addressing views which give very low moral weights to animals due to characteristics like mind complexity, brain size, and behavior, which can and should be incorporated into welfare ranges. Instead, it was specifically addressing overwhelming hierarchicalism, which is a view which assigns overwhelmingly lower moral weight based solely on species.
My statement was intended to draw a provocative analogy: There’s no theoretical reason why one’s ethical system should lexicographically prefer one race/gender/species over another, based solely on that characteristic. In my experience, people who have this view on species say things like “we have the right to exploit animals because we’re stronger than them”, or “exploiting animals is the natural order”, which could have come straight out of Mein Kampf. Drawing a provocative analogy can (sometimes) force a person to grapple with the cognitive dissonance from holding such a position.
While hierarchicalism is common among the general public, highly engaged EAs generally don’t even argue for hierarchicalism because it’s just such a dubious view. I wouldn’t write something like this about virtually any other argument for prioritizing global health, including ripple effects, neuron count weighting, denying that animals are conscious, or concerns about optics.
“There’s no theoretical reason why one’s ethical system should lexicographically prefer one race/gender/species over another, based solely on that characteristic. In my experience, people who have this view on species say things like “we have the right to exploit animals because we’re stronger than them”, or “exploiting animals is the natural order” I completely agree with this (although I think its probably a straw man, I can’t see anyone here arguing those things).
I just think its a really bad idea to compare almost most argument (including non-animal related ones) with Nazi Germany and that thought-world. I think its possible to provoke without going this way.
1) Insensitive to the people groups that were involved in that horrific period of time 2) Distracts the argument itself (like it has here, although that’s kind of on me) 2) Brings potential unnecessary negative PR issues with EA, as it gives unnecessary ammunition for hit pieces.
Its the style not the substance here I’m strongly against.
Strong downvoted because I find this statement repugnant “I put about as much weight on it as the idea that the interests of the Aryan race should be lexicographically preferred to the interests of non-Aryans.”
Why go there? You don’t do yourself or animal welfare proponents any favors. Make the argument in a less provocative way.
We know conclusively that human experience is the same. On the animal front there are very many datapoints (mind complexity, brain size, behavior) which are priors that at least push us towards some kind of heirachialism.
I have a lot of respect for most pro-animal arguments, but why go this way?
Hierarchicalism, as Ariel presents it, is based solely on species membership, where humans are prioritized simply because they are humans. See here (bold emphasis mine):
So, the argument you’re making about mind complexity and behavior goes beyond the species-based hierarchicalism Ariel refers to:
While I understand the discomfort with the Aryan vs. non-Aryan analogy, striking analogies like this can sometimes help expose problematic reasoning. I feel like it’s a common approach in moral philosophy. But, I recognize that these comparisons are emotionally charged, and it’s important to use them carefully to avoid alienating others.
(I didn’t downvote your comment, by the way.)
I feel bad that my comment made you (and a few others, judging by your comment’s agreevotes) feel bad.
As JackM points out, that snarky comment wasn’t addressing views which give very low moral weights to animals due to characteristics like mind complexity, brain size, and behavior, which can and should be incorporated into welfare ranges. Instead, it was specifically addressing overwhelming hierarchicalism, which is a view which assigns overwhelmingly lower moral weight based solely on species.
My statement was intended to draw a provocative analogy: There’s no theoretical reason why one’s ethical system should lexicographically prefer one race/gender/species over another, based solely on that characteristic. In my experience, people who have this view on species say things like “we have the right to exploit animals because we’re stronger than them”, or “exploiting animals is the natural order”, which could have come straight out of Mein Kampf. Drawing a provocative analogy can (sometimes) force a person to grapple with the cognitive dissonance from holding such a position.
While hierarchicalism is common among the general public, highly engaged EAs generally don’t even argue for hierarchicalism because it’s just such a dubious view. I wouldn’t write something like this about virtually any other argument for prioritizing global health, including ripple effects, neuron count weighting, denying that animals are conscious, or concerns about optics.
“There’s no theoretical reason why one’s ethical system should lexicographically prefer one race/gender/species over another, based solely on that characteristic. In my experience, people who have this view on species say things like “we have the right to exploit animals because we’re stronger than them”, or “exploiting animals is the natural order” I completely agree with this (although I think its probably a straw man, I can’t see anyone here arguing those things).
I just think its a really bad idea to compare almost most argument (including non-animal related ones) with Nazi Germany and that thought-world. I think its possible to provoke without going this way.
1) Insensitive to the people groups that were involved in that horrific period of time
2) Distracts the argument itself (like it has here, although that’s kind of on me)
2) Brings potential unnecessary negative PR issues with EA, as it gives unnecessary ammunition for hit pieces.
Its the style not the substance here I’m strongly against.