Thanks again for all the feedback! To what extent each piece of content closely associated with EA should aim to be ‘representative’ is a vexed issue that folks are going to continue to have different views on, and we can’t produce something that’s ideal to everyone simultaneously.
Fortunately in this case I think there’s a change we can make that will be an improvement from everyone’s perspective.
We had planned to later make another collection that would showcase a wider variety of things that EAs are up to. Given your worries combined with the broader enthusiasm for the underlying concept, it seems like we should just do that as soon as it’s practical for Keiran and me to put it together.
That feed would be called something like ‘Effective Altruism: Ten Problem Areas’ and feature Bollard and Glennerster, and other guests on topics like journalism, climate change, pandemics, earning to give, and a few others which we’ll think about.
We’ll promote it similarly — and cross-promote between the two collections — so anyone who wants to learn about those problem areas will end up doing so.
(Independently we also realised that we should sub Ajeya’s episode into ‘An Introduction’. That only didn’t happen the first time around because we settled on this list of ten in 2020 before Ajeya’s episode existed. Ajeya’s interview will be more neutral about longtermism than what it replaces.)
Speaking personally as Rob (because I know other people at 80,000 Hours have different perspectives), I favour a model where there are a range of varied introductory materials, some of which lean towards a focus on poverty, some towards animals, some towards longtermism, some with other angles, and still others that aims to be representative.
In any case, after this reshuffle we’ll have two feeds for you — one that leans into the way we think about things at 80,000 Hours, and another that shows off the variety of causes prioritised by EAs.
Folks can then choose whichever one they would rather share, or listen to themselves. (And fingers crossed many people will opt to listen to both!)
Hi Rob and Keiran, thanks for the quick response! I agree that this is a difficult issue. Thanks for letting us know about that 2nd feed with a wider variety of things that EAs are up to. I think that’s a good thing to have.
Even with that 2nd feed though, I think it would still be better if the “Effective Altruism: An Introduction Feed” had the Lewis Bollard episode and an episode on global health and dev’t, whether by substituting episodes or expanding it to 12 episodes. I don’t want to make this into a big debate, but I want to share my point of view below.
Because the feed is marketed as something “to help listeners quickly get up to speed on the school of thought known as effective altruism”, and because of 80K’s wide reach, I think some people seeing this list or listening to this feed may have a misrepresentative view of what EA is. Specifically, they might think we are more longtermist than the community really is, or be expected to lean longtermist.
Also, all or most of the popular “Intro to EA” resources or collections out there at least give a substantial part on global health and dev’t and animal welfare, such as the Intro to EA on the EA website, the Intro EA Fellowship syllabus created by EA Oxford (with input from CEA and other EAs), and Will MacAskill’s TED talk. And CEA still makes sure to include GH&D (Global Health and Dev’t) and Animal Welfare content substantially in their EA conferences.
All of these are reflections that the community still prioritizes these two causes a lot. I know that key leaders of EA do lean longtermist, as seen in 80K’s key ideas page, or some past leaders forum surveys, or how 3-4 weeks of the Intro EA Fellowship syllabus are on longtermist-related content, while only 1-2 weeks are on GH&D, and 1 week on animal welfare / moral circle expansion.
I’m fine with the community and the resources leaning to be longtermist, since I do generally agree with longtermism. But I don’t think “Intro to EA” resources or collections like 80K’s feed should only have snippets/intros/outros of GH&D and animal welfare content, and then be ~95% longtermist content.
Of course, people consuming your feed who are interested in global health and dev’t and animal welfare could listen to your episode 0/intros/outros, or find other podcast episodes that interest them through your website. But I worry about a larger trend here of GH&D and animal welfare content being drastically lessened, and people interested in these causes feeling more and more alienated from the EA community.
I think 80K has some significant power/effect in influencing the EA community and its culture. So I think when 80K decides to reshape the way effective altruism is introduced to be ~95% longtermist content, it could possibly influence the community significantly in ways that people not interested in or working on longtermism would not want, including leaders in the EA community who work on non-longtermist causes.
I’d understand if 80K still decides not to include an episode on GH&D and animal welfare into your Intro to EA feed, since you’re free to do what you want to do, but I hope I laid out some arguments on why that might be a bad decision.
It’s a bit time-consuming and effortful to write these, so I hope this doesn’t blow up into a huge debate or something like that. Just trying to offer my point of view, hoping that it helps!
Hey Brian, Ula, and other commenters,
Thanks again for all the feedback! To what extent each piece of content closely associated with EA should aim to be ‘representative’ is a vexed issue that folks are going to continue to have different views on, and we can’t produce something that’s ideal to everyone simultaneously.
Fortunately in this case I think there’s a change we can make that will be an improvement from everyone’s perspective.
We had planned to later make another collection that would showcase a wider variety of things that EAs are up to. Given your worries combined with the broader enthusiasm for the underlying concept, it seems like we should just do that as soon as it’s practical for Keiran and me to put it together.
That feed would be called something like ‘Effective Altruism: Ten Problem Areas’ and feature Bollard and Glennerster, and other guests on topics like journalism, climate change, pandemics, earning to give, and a few others which we’ll think about.
We’ll promote it similarly — and cross-promote between the two collections — so anyone who wants to learn about those problem areas will end up doing so.
(Independently we also realised that we should sub Ajeya’s episode into ‘An Introduction’. That only didn’t happen the first time around because we settled on this list of ten in 2020 before Ajeya’s episode existed. Ajeya’s interview will be more neutral about longtermism than what it replaces.)
Speaking personally as Rob (because I know other people at 80,000 Hours have different perspectives), I favour a model where there are a range of varied introductory materials, some of which lean towards a focus on poverty, some towards animals, some towards longtermism, some with other angles, and still others that aims to be representative.
In any case, after this reshuffle we’ll have two feeds for you — one that leans into the way we think about things at 80,000 Hours, and another that shows off the variety of causes prioritised by EAs.
Folks can then choose whichever one they would rather share, or listen to themselves. (And fingers crossed many people will opt to listen to both!)
Look forward to hearing your thoughts,
— Rob and Keiran
Hi Rob and Keiran, thanks for the quick response! I agree that this is a difficult issue. Thanks for letting us know about that 2nd feed with a wider variety of things that EAs are up to. I think that’s a good thing to have.
Even with that 2nd feed though, I think it would still be better if the “Effective Altruism: An Introduction Feed” had the Lewis Bollard episode and an episode on global health and dev’t, whether by substituting episodes or expanding it to 12 episodes. I don’t want to make this into a big debate, but I want to share my point of view below.
Because the feed is marketed as something “to help listeners quickly get up to speed on the school of thought known as effective altruism”, and because of 80K’s wide reach, I think some people seeing this list or listening to this feed may have a misrepresentative view of what EA is. Specifically, they might think we are more longtermist than the community really is, or be expected to lean longtermist.
Also, all or most of the popular “Intro to EA” resources or collections out there at least give a substantial part on global health and dev’t and animal welfare, such as the Intro to EA on the EA website, the Intro EA Fellowship syllabus created by EA Oxford (with input from CEA and other EAs), and Will MacAskill’s TED talk. And CEA still makes sure to include GH&D (Global Health and Dev’t) and Animal Welfare content substantially in their EA conferences.
All of these are reflections that the community still prioritizes these two causes a lot. I know that key leaders of EA do lean longtermist, as seen in 80K’s key ideas page, or some past leaders forum surveys, or how 3-4 weeks of the Intro EA Fellowship syllabus are on longtermist-related content, while only 1-2 weeks are on GH&D, and 1 week on animal welfare / moral circle expansion.
I’m fine with the community and the resources leaning to be longtermist, since I do generally agree with longtermism. But I don’t think “Intro to EA” resources or collections like 80K’s feed should only have snippets/intros/outros of GH&D and animal welfare content, and then be ~95% longtermist content.
Of course, people consuming your feed who are interested in global health and dev’t and animal welfare could listen to your episode 0/intros/outros, or find other podcast episodes that interest them through your website. But I worry about a larger trend here of GH&D and animal welfare content being drastically lessened, and people interested in these causes feeling more and more alienated from the EA community.
I think 80K has some significant power/effect in influencing the EA community and its culture. So I think when 80K decides to reshape the way effective altruism is introduced to be ~95% longtermist content, it could possibly influence the community significantly in ways that people not interested in or working on longtermism would not want, including leaders in the EA community who work on non-longtermist causes.
I’d understand if 80K still decides not to include an episode on GH&D and animal welfare into your Intro to EA feed, since you’re free to do what you want to do, but I hope I laid out some arguments on why that might be a bad decision.
It’s a bit time-consuming and effortful to write these, so I hope this doesn’t blow up into a huge debate or something like that. Just trying to offer my point of view, hoping that it helps!