I mostly agree with this, and think it’s on-net an important corrective to current Forum norms.
When writing on the Forum I definitely feel pressure to write like a Very Serious Thoughtful Person. Some of that is probably good but I think it causes me and others to produce less content, and to make what content we do produce harder to read. The best LessWrong content is usually much better-written than the best Forum content, and I think style norms are a big part of the reason why.
If we’re doubling down on the “boring writing is unethical” take (which I actually like and find motivating!), it’s also worth noting that boring/dense/otherwise hard-to-read writing takes much longer to read and understand. If you hope that what you’re writing will be read by important people, making your writing more engaging will save those readers a substantial amount of highly valuable time → impact!
That said, it’s important to note that what counts as “engaging” will vary a lot by context. You reference The Precipice as an example of engaging writing, but The Precipice is a very serious book with absolutely no jokes I can recall. And sometimes what some people find engaging others find off-putting – for example, for reasons I don’t entirely understand I find virtually all multi-panel memes intensely annoying, which meant that I was negatively disposed towards this post for much of the time I spent reading it even though I basically agreed with the take. I’d be unhappy to see a lot more memes on the forum, but happy to see more microhumour, imagery, verbal flourishes, et cetera.
The best LessWrong content is usually much better-written than the best Forum content, and I think style norms are a big part of the reason why.
I so agree.
That said, it’s important to note that what counts as “engaging” will vary a lot by context. I find virtually all multi-panel memes intensely annoying
Very true! Tastes definitely vary. In fact, this example is perfect, because I’ve also heard from some people that the meme was the only reason they read the post in the first place.
I wonder if this might actually be part of the mechanism by which people end up being incentivized to write dry things. It’s like why houses are all boring colors. Because nobody doesn’t buy a house because it’s boring looking, but people do not buy a house if it’s an interesting color. Of course, some people are also much more likely to buy it if it’s a cool color.
Similarly with writing, nobody will leave a negative comment about how the article was boring (and I support this! That would be a terrible norm to have), but people will be more likely to leave a comment saying they don’t like some more out there style, etc. Basically, you’re exposing yourself to more potential criticism. Or a more bimodal distribution of reactions, and most people (including myself), feel negative feedback far more than positive.
Dry writing feels safe in a way that engaging writing doesn’t.
I wonder if this might actually be part of the mechanism by which people end up being incentivized to write dry things. It’s like why houses are all boring colors. Because nobody doesn’t buy a house because it’s boring looking, but people do not buy a house if it’s an interesting color. Of course, some people are also much more likely to buy it if it’s a cool color.
Similarly with writing, nobody will leave a negative comment about how the article was boring (and I support this! That would be a terrible norm to have), but people will be more likely to leave a comment saying they don’t like some more out there style, etc. Basically, you’re exposing yourself to more potential criticism. Or a more bimodal distribution of reactions, and most people (including myself), feel negative feedback far more than positive.
Dry writing feels safe in a way that engaging writing doesn’t.
I basically agree with this!
My main reservation is that there are many ways to make writing less dull that I really don’t want on the Forum (mockery, clickbait, aggression/combativeness, et cetera). I’d very happily take the current Forum (which isn’t that dull) over one that was more entertaining but had significantly worse discourse norms.
For example, one of the reasons I don’t read LessWrong all that much is because a number of prominent users write in a tendentious, combative, unqualified style that I think is bad for collective epistemics and the world, even though it’s engaging. I wouldn’t be excited about importing that onto the Forum.
I don’t think the OP is arguing for any of these bad things – there are also various ways to make writing more engaging without doing bad stuff! But I do want to point out that “engaging” is a big place, and contains many areas that are worse than our current home in “dry”.
I strongly agree with the framing of hard-to-read writing as imposing a burden on readers. I liken it to a time tax—and, in the case of government documents, can really have financial consequences.
So, to be fair to your reader, make your writing as clear and engaging as possible!
I mostly agree with this, and think it’s on-net an important corrective to current Forum norms.
When writing on the Forum I definitely feel pressure to write like a Very Serious Thoughtful Person. Some of that is probably good but I think it causes me and others to produce less content, and to make what content we do produce harder to read. The best LessWrong content is usually much better-written than the best Forum content, and I think style norms are a big part of the reason why.
If we’re doubling down on the “boring writing is unethical” take (which I actually like and find motivating!), it’s also worth noting that boring/dense/otherwise hard-to-read writing takes much longer to read and understand. If you hope that what you’re writing will be read by important people, making your writing more engaging will save those readers a substantial amount of highly valuable time → impact!
That said, it’s important to note that what counts as “engaging” will vary a lot by context. You reference The Precipice as an example of engaging writing, but The Precipice is a very serious book with absolutely no jokes I can recall. And sometimes what some people find engaging others find off-putting – for example, for reasons I don’t entirely understand I find virtually all multi-panel memes intensely annoying, which meant that I was negatively disposed towards this post for much of the time I spent reading it even though I basically agreed with the take. I’d be unhappy to see a lot more memes on the forum, but happy to see more microhumour, imagery, verbal flourishes, et cetera.
I so agree.
Very true! Tastes definitely vary. In fact, this example is perfect, because I’ve also heard from some people that the meme was the only reason they read the post in the first place.
I wonder if this might actually be part of the mechanism by which people end up being incentivized to write dry things. It’s like why houses are all boring colors. Because nobody doesn’t buy a house because it’s boring looking, but people do not buy a house if it’s an interesting color. Of course, some people are also much more likely to buy it if it’s a cool color.
Similarly with writing, nobody will leave a negative comment about how the article was boring (and I support this! That would be a terrible norm to have), but people will be more likely to leave a comment saying they don’t like some more out there style, etc. Basically, you’re exposing yourself to more potential criticism. Or a more bimodal distribution of reactions, and most people (including myself), feel negative feedback far more than positive.
Dry writing feels safe in a way that engaging writing doesn’t.
I basically agree with this!
My main reservation is that there are many ways to make writing less dull that I really don’t want on the Forum (mockery, clickbait, aggression/combativeness, et cetera). I’d very happily take the current Forum (which isn’t that dull) over one that was more entertaining but had significantly worse discourse norms.
For example, one of the reasons I don’t read LessWrong all that much is because a number of prominent users write in a tendentious, combative, unqualified style that I think is bad for collective epistemics and the world, even though it’s engaging. I wouldn’t be excited about importing that onto the Forum.
I don’t think the OP is arguing for any of these bad things – there are also various ways to make writing more engaging without doing bad stuff! But I do want to point out that “engaging” is a big place, and contains many areas that are worse than our current home in “dry”.
I strongly agree with the framing of hard-to-read writing as imposing a burden on readers. I liken it to a time tax—and, in the case of government documents, can really have financial consequences.
So, to be fair to your reader, make your writing as clear and engaging as possible!