While I agree that these kinds of “bad EA optics” posts are generally unproductive and it makes sense for them to get downvoted, I’m surprised that this specific one isn’t getting more upvoted? Unlike most links to hit pieces and criticisms of EA, this post actually contains new information that has changed my perception of EA and EA leadership.
If the post had just been making the forum readers aware of the controversy and added some commentary along the lines “this was really hard to read and was really disappointing,” then I would’ve upvoted it (I see it the same way.)
However, the OP also highlights a particular paragraph in the apology (about the cause of differences in group averages) and implies that Bostrom’s uncertainty about it and his statement “and I don’t have any particular interest in the question” means that he holds morally repugnant views or at least doesn’t sufficiently condemn them.
I explained here why I don’t agree with this. To quote from that comment:
I think it’s bad to reinforce the idea that group averages have any normative relevance whatsoever. If we speak as though the defence against racism is empirically finding that all intelligence differences for group averages are at most environmentally-caused, then that’s a weak defence against racism! It’s “weak” because it could turn out to be false. But in reality, I don’t think there’s any possiblefinding that could make us think “racism is okay.” In my view, not being racist – in the sense that has moral significance for me – means that (1) you’re not more inclined to falsely reach a conclusion about people from a different ethnicity than you’d reach the same conclusion about (e.g.) your own ethnicity and (2) when you consider “candidates” (in whatever context) with equal characteristics/interests/qualifications, etc., you’re not more inclined to treat some worse than others based solely on their ethnicity. If we hold this view, we get to relax to about what could be found out about group averages.
That said, I do agree that there’s very little, if anything, to gain from discussions about group averages, and that the people who are eager to bring up the topic seem morally suspicious. (In this specific case of Bostrom_2023 writing the apology, it’s not like he could have chosen to avoid the topic entirely – so given the mistakes he made 26 years ago, he had to address it again.)
This makes more sense. I still feel a bit irked by the downvotes though—I would like people to be aware of the email, and feel much more strongly about this than about not wanting people to see some of pseudonym’s takes about the apology.
I appreciated your original comment and upvoted it. I’ll just add something now in response to this pushback.
I’m not suggesting that Nick should claim that all groups no matter what have identical results in IQ tests, or that there’s zero genetic contribution to IQ.
If you are apologizing for a statement that is easily read to mean you believe white people are superior to black people (“I like this comment and think it is true”), and then in your apology you say something like:
“Well, are black people actually worth the same as white people? I leave that to experts to debate the question”
Then it’s very reasonably going to be interpreted as not a genuine apology for holding harmful views, and “primarily just trying to do damage control for using a racial slur, or preemptive PR work for some other reason, as opposed to apologizing for actually holding those views.”, which is why I linked that quote.
Even in the original email, Bostrom makes clear that differences in intelligence do not alter the moral value or human dignity of each person.
For him, as for many, the issues of intelligence and moral worth are distinct; he never claims that black people are worth less, you are ascribing your own notion that IQ=moral worth, and then blaming him for not responding to it.
Thanks for the reply. That makes sense! I feel like Bostrom said a bit more than you describe here to make it clear that he doesn’t hold the view that white people are superior. So, to me, while “I like this comment” seemed like an extremely unfortunate phrasing on his part, the context at least made clear that he liked how the comment is “bold and edgy” rather than liking something about alleged differences between white and black people.
That said, you’re right that it’s important to make these things really clear in an apology and he could have said more on the topic. Other people have also had negative reactions to the apology (e.g., Habiba here), so maybe I’m in a minority. I read the apology and thought it wasn’t bad. I agree it could’ve been better (e.g., he could have written something like the paragraphs I wrote on how we should be very clear that group averages don’t have moral significance) .
(I’m sometimes not sure whether it’s good to make apologies really long. If I ever had to apologize for something pretty bad, I’d be tempted to write a very long statement – but that may come across as self-absorbed and overly defensive. It just seems hard to get this right and I feel like Bostrom’s apology at least hit a few aspects of what I’d expect an acceptable apology to contain.)
Other people have also had negative reactions to the apology (e.g., Habiba here), so maybe I’m in a minority.
My sense is that many people thought the apology was reasonable. Your comment and Ofer’s comment, both of which defend the apology as reasonable, have both 65 Karma which makes them among the most upvoted comments in this whole discussion (both statements are made Jan 13, 11:23 CET). I also think Bostrom’s apology is reasonable (needless to say, I share your and Ofer’s negative reaction to the original email.)
I think it’s much riskier, reputation-wise, to state that one had a positive reaction to the apology than to state that one had a negative one, so we will see more of the latter. I think votes are in this case a more accurate reflection of people’s views.
Yeah, I basically strongly agree Habiba’s post, thanks for linking it.
This part especially:
“So while it would be okay to say something wrong one time on the internet. It is also okay for me and other people to be upset, uncomfortable, angry, disgusted, or even scared that someone who looks at questions about the future of humanity and writes about morality does not and did not display a sensitivity to this context.
It is pretty reasonable to be mistrustful when someone espouses views (whether callously or even in polite language) that were espoused in much the same way by people throughout history who used those views to justify terrible things.
I would be uncomfortable and upset to be part of a community where discussing issues like race/intelligence was not carried out with the empathy and rigour that the subject requires or where people commonly held views on race/intelligence that I consider to be wrong and extremely harmful.”
Hard to read? Does anyone here face actual adversity anymore?
Btw. even Charles Murray now publicly says the “there’s very little, if anything, to gain from discussions about group averages” line. In my view this is the equivalent to rolling onto one’s back and begging for the mob to harass someone else while hoping the inquisition overlooks that one has not wholly retracted one’s statement.
Apart from racial slurs the original email contained “I like that sentence.” I’m sure that’s explained by not being neurotypical and enjoying being contrarian/edgy (see this comment), but I still find it jarring. I think that’s a natural reaction.
Does anyone here face actual adversity anymore?
Why is it that people either have to be unreasonable in one direction or the other? In my view, you’re being just as one-sided here as “the mob” if you make it seem like no one is facing racial adversity. Lots of people are facing adversity for all kinds of reasons, racism is some of it, as are other problems (e.g., mental illnesses are a big problem that’s arguably underrated and happens to affect people from all kinds of backgrounds).
Btw. even Charles Murray now publicly says the “there’s very little, if anything, to gain from discussions about group averages” line. In my view this is the equivalent to rolling onto one’s back and begging for the mob to harass someone else while hoping the inquisition overlooks that one has not wholly retracted one’s statement.
When you imagine the Venn diagram of people who talk a lot about group averages vs people who have actively sought to improve the situation of socio-economically disadvantaged groups, I’d say the intersection isn’t that large. Charles Murray happens to be in the intersection (and it’s awful and unfair how people have shunned him), but this doesn’t change that the intersection is rather small according to my perception.
Apart from racial slurs the original email contained “I like that sentence.” I’m sure that’s explained by not being neurotypical and enjoying being contrarian/edgy (see this comment), but I still find it jarring. I think that’s a natural reaction.
Him writing he likes the sentence is in no way equivalent to writing he likes the fact. The sentiment obviously stems from the fact that is rather difficult to publicize such a thought and hence having ‘come out’ comes along with some ‘pride’. But yes, cretain religious conservatives might find the other metaphorial jarring as well. So what.
Why is it that people either have to be unreasonable in one direction or the other? In my view, you’re being just as one-sided here as “the mob” if you make it seem like no one is facing racial adversity. Lots of people are facing adversity for all kinds of reasons, racism is some of it, as are other problems (e.g., mental illnesses are a big problem that’s arguably underrated and happens to affect people from all kinds of backgrounds).
People have been amplified in victimising themselves by a tidal wave of you-know-what for more than a decade now, despite the things being complained about being in decline ever since the sixties. People face all kinds of adversity in the modern world, most of outweight racial adversity by far.
When you imagine the Venn diagram of people who talk a lot about group averages vs people who have actively sought to improve the situation of socio-economically disadvantaged groups, I’d say the intersection isn’t that large. Charles Murray happens to be in the intersection (and it’s awful and unfair how people have shunned him), but this doesn’t change that the intersection is rather small according to my perception.
Yeah, so let’s not make decent people shy away from discussing these matters publicly with a problem solving mindset any more than we already do. Character assassination by Venn diagramm helps no one but the baddies, both on the left and on the right.
While I agree that these kinds of “bad EA optics” posts are generally unproductive and it makes sense for them to get downvoted, I’m surprised that this specific one isn’t getting more upvoted? Unlike most links to hit pieces and criticisms of EA, this post actually contains new information that has changed my perception of EA and EA leadership.
If the post had just been making the forum readers aware of the controversy and added some commentary along the lines “this was really hard to read and was really disappointing,” then I would’ve upvoted it (I see it the same way.)
However, the OP also highlights a particular paragraph in the apology (about the cause of differences in group averages) and implies that Bostrom’s uncertainty about it and his statement “and I don’t have any particular interest in the question” means that he holds morally repugnant views or at least doesn’t sufficiently condemn them.
I explained here why I don’t agree with this. To quote from that comment:
This makes more sense. I still feel a bit irked by the downvotes though—I would like people to be aware of the email, and feel much more strongly about this than about not wanting people to see some of pseudonym’s takes about the apology.
I appreciated your original comment and upvoted it. I’ll just add something now in response to this pushback.
I’m not suggesting that Nick should claim that all groups no matter what have identical results in IQ tests, or that there’s zero genetic contribution to IQ.
If you are apologizing for a statement that is easily read to mean you believe white people are superior to black people (“I like this comment and think it is true”), and then in your apology you say something like:
“Well, are black people actually worth the same as white people? I leave that to experts to debate the question”
Then it’s very reasonably going to be interpreted as not a genuine apology for holding harmful views, and “primarily just trying to do damage control for using a racial slur, or preemptive PR work for some other reason, as opposed to apologizing for actually holding those views.”, which is why I linked that quote.
Even in the original email, Bostrom makes clear that differences in intelligence do not alter the moral value or human dignity of each person.
For him, as for many, the issues of intelligence and moral worth are distinct; he never claims that black people are worth less, you are ascribing your own notion that IQ=moral worth, and then blaming him for not responding to it.
“easily read to mean”
Thanks for the reply. That makes sense! I feel like Bostrom said a bit more than you describe here to make it clear that he doesn’t hold the view that white people are superior. So, to me, while “I like this comment” seemed like an extremely unfortunate phrasing on his part, the context at least made clear that he liked how the comment is “bold and edgy” rather than liking something about alleged differences between white and black people.
That said, you’re right that it’s important to make these things really clear in an apology and he could have said more on the topic. Other people have also had negative reactions to the apology (e.g., Habiba here), so maybe I’m in a minority. I read the apology and thought it wasn’t bad. I agree it could’ve been better (e.g., he could have written something like the paragraphs I wrote on how we should be very clear that group averages don’t have moral significance) .
(I’m sometimes not sure whether it’s good to make apologies really long. If I ever had to apologize for something pretty bad, I’d be tempted to write a very long statement – but that may come across as self-absorbed and overly defensive. It just seems hard to get this right and I feel like Bostrom’s apology at least hit a few aspects of what I’d expect an acceptable apology to contain.)
My sense is that many people thought the apology was reasonable. Your comment and Ofer’s comment, both of which defend the apology as reasonable, have both 65 Karma which makes them among the most upvoted comments in this whole discussion (both statements are made Jan 13, 11:23 CET). I also think Bostrom’s apology is reasonable (needless to say, I share your and Ofer’s negative reaction to the original email.)
I think it’s much riskier, reputation-wise, to state that one had a positive reaction to the apology than to state that one had a negative one, so we will see more of the latter. I think votes are in this case a more accurate reflection of people’s views.
Yeah, I basically strongly agree Habiba’s post, thanks for linking it.
This part especially:
“So while it would be okay to say something wrong one time on the internet. It is also okay for me and other people to be upset, uncomfortable, angry, disgusted, or even scared that someone who looks at questions about the future of humanity and writes about morality does not and did not display a sensitivity to this context.
It is pretty reasonable to be mistrustful when someone espouses views (whether callously or even in polite language) that were espoused in much the same way by people throughout history who used those views to justify terrible things.
I would be uncomfortable and upset to be part of a community where discussing issues like race/intelligence was not carried out with the empathy and rigour that the subject requires or where people commonly held views on race/intelligence that I consider to be wrong and extremely harmful.”
Hard to read? Does anyone here face actual adversity anymore?
Btw. even Charles Murray now publicly says the “there’s very little, if anything, to gain from discussions about group averages” line. In my view this is the equivalent to rolling onto one’s back and begging for the mob to harass someone else while hoping the inquisition overlooks that one has not wholly retracted one’s statement.
Apart from racial slurs the original email contained “I like that sentence.” I’m sure that’s explained by not being neurotypical and enjoying being contrarian/edgy (see this comment), but I still find it jarring. I think that’s a natural reaction.
Why is it that people either have to be unreasonable in one direction or the other? In my view, you’re being just as one-sided here as “the mob” if you make it seem like no one is facing racial adversity. Lots of people are facing adversity for all kinds of reasons, racism is some of it, as are other problems (e.g., mental illnesses are a big problem that’s arguably underrated and happens to affect people from all kinds of backgrounds).
When you imagine the Venn diagram of people who talk a lot about group averages vs people who have actively sought to improve the situation of socio-economically disadvantaged groups, I’d say the intersection isn’t that large. Charles Murray happens to be in the intersection (and it’s awful and unfair how people have shunned him), but this doesn’t change that the intersection is rather small according to my perception.
Him writing he likes the sentence is in no way equivalent to writing he likes the fact. The sentiment obviously stems from the fact that is rather difficult to publicize such a thought and hence having ‘come out’ comes along with some ‘pride’. But yes, cretain religious conservatives might find the other metaphorial jarring as well. So what.
People have been amplified in victimising themselves by a tidal wave of you-know-what for more than a decade now, despite the things being complained about being in decline ever since the sixties. People face all kinds of adversity in the modern world, most of outweight racial adversity by far.
Yeah, so let’s not make decent people shy away from discussing these matters publicly with a problem solving mindset any more than we already do. Character assassination by Venn diagramm helps no one but the baddies, both on the left and on the right.