I also want to point out that having better outside income-maximizing options makes you more financially secure than other people in your income bracket, all else equal, which pro tanto would give you more reason to donate than them.
My point is that “other people in the income bracket AFTER taking a lower paying job” is the wrong reference class.
Let’s say someone is earning $10mn/year in finance. I totally think they should donate some large fraction of their income. But I’m pretty reluctant to argue that they should donate more than 99% of it. So it seems completely fine to have a post donation income above $100K, likely far above.
If this person quits to take a job in AI Safety that pays $100K/year, because they think this is more impactful than their donations, I think it would be unreasonable to argue that they need to donate some of their reduced salary, because then their “maximum acceptable post donation salary” has gone down, even though they’re (hopefully) having more impact than if they donated everything above $100K
I’m picking fairly extreme numbers to illustrate the point, but the key point is that choosing to do direct work should not reduce your “maximum acceptable salary post donations”, and that at least according to my values, that max salary post donation is often above what they get paid in their new direct role.
I suppose what it comes down to is that I actually DO think it is morally better for the person earning $10m/year to donate $9.9m/year than $9m/year, about $900k/year better.
I want to achieve two things (which I expect you will agree with).
I want to “capture” the good done by anyone and everyone willing to contribute and I want them welcomed, accepted and appreciated by the EA community. This means that if a person who could earn $10m/year in finance and is “only” willing to contribute $1m/year (10%) to effective causes, I don’t want them turned away.
I want to encourage, inspire, motivate and push people to do better than they currently are (insofar as it’s possible). I think that includes an Anthropic employee earning $500k/year doing mech interp, a quant trader earning $10m/year, a new grad deciding what to do with their career and a 65-year old who just heard of EA.
I think it’s also reasonable for people to set limits for how much they are willing to do.
This is reasonable. I think the key point that I want to defend is that it seems wrong to say that choosing a more impactful job should mean you ought to have a lower post donation salary.
I personally think of it in terms of having some minimum obligation for doing your part (which I set at 10% by default), plus encouragement (but not obligation) to do significant amounts more good if you want to
My point is that “other people in the income bracket AFTER taking a lower paying job” is the wrong reference class.
Is there a single appropriate reference class here, as opposed to looking at multiple reference classes and weighting the results in some manner?
I agree that similarly situated person who decided to take a very high-paying job is a relevant reference class and should get some weight. However, it doesn’t follow that person with similar incomes working a non-impactful job is an irrelevant reference class or should get zero weight.
As Marcus notes, “[p]eople don’t choose to be smart enough to do ML work.” I would add that people don’t choose other factors that promote or inhibit their ability to choose a very high-paying job and/or a high-impact job (e.g., location and circumstances of birth, health, family obligations, etc.) In a pair of persons who are similarly situated economically, giving the more advantaged person a total pass on the moral obligation to donate money seems problematic to me. In this frame of reference, their advantages allowed them to land a more impactful job at the same salary as the less advantaged person—and in a sense we would be excusing them from a moral obligation because they are advantaged. (Giving the more privileged person a big break is also going to make it rather hard to establish substantial giving as a norm in the broader community, but that’s probably not in the scope of the question here.)
I don’t have a clear opinion on how to weight the two reference classes beyond an intuition that both classes should get perceptible weight. (It also seems plausible there are other reference classes to weigh as well, although I haven’t thought about what they might be.)
My argument is essentially that “similar income, non impactful job” is as relevant a reference class to the “similar income, impactful job person” as it is as a reference class to the “high income, non impactful job” person. I also personally think reference classes is the wrong way to think about it. If taking a more impactful job also makes someone obliged to take on a lower post donation salary (when they don’t have to), I feel like something has gone wrong, and the incentives are not aligned with doing the most good.
My point is that, even though there’s a moral obligation, unless you think that high earning people in finance should be donating a very large fraction of their salary (so their post donation pay is less than the pay in AI safety), their de facto moral obligation has increased by the choice to do direct work, which is unreasonable to my eyes.
I would also guess that at least most people doing safety work at industry labs could get a very well paying role at a top tier finance firm? The talent bar is really high nowadays
Sure. But the average person working in AI is not at Jane St level like you and yes, OpenAI/Anthropic comp is extremely high.
I would also say that people still have a moral obligation. People don’t choose to be smart enough to do ML work.
I also want to point out that having better outside income-maximizing options makes you more financially secure than other people in your income bracket, all else equal, which pro tanto would give you more reason to donate than them.
My point is that “other people in the income bracket AFTER taking a lower paying job” is the wrong reference class.
Let’s say someone is earning $10mn/year in finance. I totally think they should donate some large fraction of their income. But I’m pretty reluctant to argue that they should donate more than 99% of it. So it seems completely fine to have a post donation income above $100K, likely far above.
If this person quits to take a job in AI Safety that pays $100K/year, because they think this is more impactful than their donations, I think it would be unreasonable to argue that they need to donate some of their reduced salary, because then their “maximum acceptable post donation salary” has gone down, even though they’re (hopefully) having more impact than if they donated everything above $100K
I’m picking fairly extreme numbers to illustrate the point, but the key point is that choosing to do direct work should not reduce your “maximum acceptable salary post donations”, and that at least according to my values, that max salary post donation is often above what they get paid in their new direct role.
I understand this. Good analogy.
I suppose what it comes down to is that I actually DO think it is morally better for the person earning $10m/year to donate $9.9m/year than $9m/year, about $900k/year better.
I want to achieve two things (which I expect you will agree with).
I want to “capture” the good done by anyone and everyone willing to contribute and I want them welcomed, accepted and appreciated by the EA community. This means that if a person who could earn $10m/year in finance and is “only” willing to contribute $1m/year (10%) to effective causes, I don’t want them turned away.
I want to encourage, inspire, motivate and push people to do better than they currently are (insofar as it’s possible). I think that includes an Anthropic employee earning $500k/year doing mech interp, a quant trader earning $10m/year, a new grad deciding what to do with their career and a 65-year old who just heard of EA.
I think it’s also reasonable for people to set limits for how much they are willing to do.
This is reasonable. I think the key point that I want to defend is that it seems wrong to say that choosing a more impactful job should mean you ought to have a lower post donation salary.
I personally think of it in terms of having some minimum obligation for doing your part (which I set at 10% by default), plus encouragement (but not obligation) to do significant amounts more good if you want to
Is there a single appropriate reference class here, as opposed to looking at multiple reference classes and weighting the results in some manner?
I agree that similarly situated person who decided to take a very high-paying job is a relevant reference class and should get some weight. However, it doesn’t follow that person with similar incomes working a non-impactful job is an irrelevant reference class or should get zero weight.
As Marcus notes, “[p]eople don’t choose to be smart enough to do ML work.” I would add that people don’t choose other factors that promote or inhibit their ability to choose a very high-paying job and/or a high-impact job (e.g., location and circumstances of birth, health, family obligations, etc.) In a pair of persons who are similarly situated economically, giving the more advantaged person a total pass on the moral obligation to donate money seems problematic to me. In this frame of reference, their advantages allowed them to land a more impactful job at the same salary as the less advantaged person—and in a sense we would be excusing them from a moral obligation because they are advantaged. (Giving the more privileged person a big break is also going to make it rather hard to establish substantial giving as a norm in the broader community, but that’s probably not in the scope of the question here.)
I don’t have a clear opinion on how to weight the two reference classes beyond an intuition that both classes should get perceptible weight. (It also seems plausible there are other reference classes to weigh as well, although I haven’t thought about what they might be.)
My argument is essentially that “similar income, non impactful job” is as relevant a reference class to the “similar income, impactful job person” as it is as a reference class to the “high income, non impactful job” person. I also personally think reference classes is the wrong way to think about it. If taking a more impactful job also makes someone obliged to take on a lower post donation salary (when they don’t have to), I feel like something has gone wrong, and the incentives are not aligned with doing the most good.
My point is that, even though there’s a moral obligation, unless you think that high earning people in finance should be donating a very large fraction of their salary (so their post donation pay is less than the pay in AI safety), their de facto moral obligation has increased by the choice to do direct work, which is unreasonable to my eyes.
I would also guess that at least most people doing safety work at industry labs could get a very well paying role at a top tier finance firm? The talent bar is really high nowadays