One page from 80,000 Hours seems especially high-leverage to improve: “How to Get a Job”. It contains many practical resources of the type you wish there were more of.
However, it also seems to undervalue some topics. For example, I couldn’t find a single recommendation there on how to write a resume, because resumes alone aren’t very likely to get you a job. This is good to know, but even if you have good references, having an informative and competently-written resume seems important, so that the references have something they can send to your desired employer without feeling embarrassed.
(Also, I got my first job out of college just by submitting a resume, and so did a thousand other people who joined the company that year. I’d just graduated from Yale, but most of my friends there had degrees from colleges like Florida State or the University of North Dakota.)
Information I wish were more available:
The “necessary and sufficient conditions” you discussed in point (1), for various jobs. Coincidentally, the recent 80,000 Hours podcast on machine learning did go into this, near the end, but only in the context of machine learning.
Compiled information from recruiters discussing how they actually evaluate applications for jobs in various fields. This could be a good research project for an individual, even if they have no connection to 80K.
Information on the most reliable ways to make a living without spending very much time or energy. It’s possible to help out a lot with research and volunteering even in your spare time (my favorite example of this is the EA Giving Tuesday project, which is, as far as I know, totally volunteer-driven). Some lines of work offer a lot of flexibility and pretty good hourly rates, even if they aren’t “top careers”, but because those positions are so desirable, there’s a ton of low-quality information about them online. I’d like to see a collection of reliable info about freelancing, jobs that offer a lot of free unstructured time, etc.
A use case I’m thinking of: Someone wants to apply for EA Grants, but needs to spend a few hundred hours setting up a project. How should they sustain themselves in the meantime, while preserving mental energy for their non-working hours?
As another commenter mentioned, Floor Employment is a good start, though it’s a few years out of date and geared toward one blogger’s audience.
Test prep tutoring and nowhere-near-the-top programming are both very good for making a living without spending much energy. The Scott Alexander post you and lexande linked has a good description of the relevant considerations for test prep tutoring.
Living in a random non-hub city, programming jobs for the state pay only about $50k/yr to start, but they’re easy to get (trial task for one was basically just “make an HTML website with maybe a button that does something”) and the expectations tend to be pretty low. I worked one of these as my main source of income until enough EA volunteering became EA freelancing became just barely sufficient to quit the day job and see what happened. I think this route is underappreciated, and the movement’s central orgs seem to have a lot more capacity to pay for specific work than to hire full-time, higher prestige employees.
Main downside of a low-stress programming day job is that being in an extremely unambitious environment for 40 hours a week can be psychologically uncomfortable.
Honestly, there are a LOT of jobs out there that will pay your bills, teach you valuable skills, and allow you to help people. I’ve been a teacher and a policy professional. Both jobs have less impact than an AMF employee but enough to be satisfying. Both jobs paid my rent. Both jobs have taught me really valuable lessons about management, organization, and public speaking. These lower prestige, conventional choices can teach people the skills that EA will need to be a strong and balanced movement going forward.
Can you say more about your experiences as a teacher and as a policy professional? What did you have to do to get those jobs, and what were the expectations once you had them? What was the pay like? Were you able to observe the interview/hiring process for anybody else being hired for the same jobs? This is exactly the kind of concrete info I’m hoping to find more of.
I entered the UK Civil Service this year. I work on Fuel Poverty Policy—I think of ways to make it easier for the poorest people in the UK to heat their homes. I think the 80k article about it is actually pretty accurate, but let me know if you have any other questions about it.
https://80000hours.org/career-reviews/policy-oriented-civil-service-uk/
Teaching was my first career. I entered by doing a Bachelor of Education degree in Canada and then being recruited to work in the UK, because the UK is struggling to fill teaching vacancies. You can usually enter teaching by doing a 1-2 year course after your Bachelor degree as well. Some countries have a program like Teach First or Teach for America that will let you straight into the classroom.
In Canada, teaching is very competitive, but in the UK many schools are struggling to recruit enough teachers. That meant it wasn’t too difficult to get a job offer, especially through a teaching agency. I found that, to get an interview and offer from a “good school,” it was useful for me to ask the headteacher to take me on a tour of the school. Making small talk with the headteacher and asking interesting questions helped me to get an interview.
Teaching is a hard job, and it’s probably true that the easier it is to get hired, the harder your job will be. You’re expected to work 40-55 hours per week during the school year. Pay varies by country, but in the UK it starts just above the national median wage (£25-30k). Most people aren’t particularly good teachers until they’ve had 5+ years experience. However, in teaching you get useful feedback very quickly, you make a living wage, and you learn lots of useful skills. Going back to teaching is my “plan Z” right now and I’m glad I have it as an option.
One page from 80,000 Hours seems especially high-leverage to improve: “How to Get a Job”. It contains many practical resources of the type you wish there were more of.
However, it also seems to undervalue some topics. For example, I couldn’t find a single recommendation there on how to write a resume, because resumes alone aren’t very likely to get you a job. This is good to know, but even if you have good references, having an informative and competently-written resume seems important, so that the references have something they can send to your desired employer without feeling embarrassed.
(Also, I got my first job out of college just by submitting a resume, and so did a thousand other people who joined the company that year. I’d just graduated from Yale, but most of my friends there had degrees from colleges like Florida State or the University of North Dakota.)
Information I wish were more available:
The “necessary and sufficient conditions” you discussed in point (1), for various jobs. Coincidentally, the recent 80,000 Hours podcast on machine learning did go into this, near the end, but only in the context of machine learning.
Compiled information from recruiters discussing how they actually evaluate applications for jobs in various fields. This could be a good research project for an individual, even if they have no connection to 80K.
Information on the most reliable ways to make a living without spending very much time or energy. It’s possible to help out a lot with research and volunteering even in your spare time (my favorite example of this is the EA Giving Tuesday project, which is, as far as I know, totally volunteer-driven). Some lines of work offer a lot of flexibility and pretty good hourly rates, even if they aren’t “top careers”, but because those positions are so desirable, there’s a ton of low-quality information about them online. I’d like to see a collection of reliable info about freelancing, jobs that offer a lot of free unstructured time, etc.
A use case I’m thinking of: Someone wants to apply for EA Grants, but needs to spend a few hundred hours setting up a project. How should they sustain themselves in the meantime, while preserving mental energy for their non-working hours?
As another commenter mentioned, Floor Employment is a good start, though it’s a few years out of date and geared toward one blogger’s audience.
Test prep tutoring and nowhere-near-the-top programming are both very good for making a living without spending much energy. The Scott Alexander post you and lexande linked has a good description of the relevant considerations for test prep tutoring.
Living in a random non-hub city, programming jobs for the state pay only about $50k/yr to start, but they’re easy to get (trial task for one was basically just “make an HTML website with maybe a button that does something”) and the expectations tend to be pretty low. I worked one of these as my main source of income until enough EA volunteering became EA freelancing became just barely sufficient to quit the day job and see what happened. I think this route is underappreciated, and the movement’s central orgs seem to have a lot more capacity to pay for specific work than to hire full-time, higher prestige employees.
Main downside of a low-stress programming day job is that being in an extremely unambitious environment for 40 hours a week can be psychologically uncomfortable.
Honestly, there are a LOT of jobs out there that will pay your bills, teach you valuable skills, and allow you to help people. I’ve been a teacher and a policy professional. Both jobs have less impact than an AMF employee but enough to be satisfying. Both jobs paid my rent. Both jobs have taught me really valuable lessons about management, organization, and public speaking. These lower prestige, conventional choices can teach people the skills that EA will need to be a strong and balanced movement going forward.
Can you say more about your experiences as a teacher and as a policy professional? What did you have to do to get those jobs, and what were the expectations once you had them? What was the pay like? Were you able to observe the interview/hiring process for anybody else being hired for the same jobs? This is exactly the kind of concrete info I’m hoping to find more of.
I entered the UK Civil Service this year. I work on Fuel Poverty Policy—I think of ways to make it easier for the poorest people in the UK to heat their homes. I think the 80k article about it is actually pretty accurate, but let me know if you have any other questions about it. https://80000hours.org/career-reviews/policy-oriented-civil-service-uk/
Teaching was my first career. I entered by doing a Bachelor of Education degree in Canada and then being recruited to work in the UK, because the UK is struggling to fill teaching vacancies. You can usually enter teaching by doing a 1-2 year course after your Bachelor degree as well. Some countries have a program like Teach First or Teach for America that will let you straight into the classroom.
In Canada, teaching is very competitive, but in the UK many schools are struggling to recruit enough teachers. That meant it wasn’t too difficult to get a job offer, especially through a teaching agency. I found that, to get an interview and offer from a “good school,” it was useful for me to ask the headteacher to take me on a tour of the school. Making small talk with the headteacher and asking interesting questions helped me to get an interview.
Teaching is a hard job, and it’s probably true that the easier it is to get hired, the harder your job will be. You’re expected to work 40-55 hours per week during the school year. Pay varies by country, but in the UK it starts just above the national median wage (£25-30k). Most people aren’t particularly good teachers until they’ve had 5+ years experience. However, in teaching you get useful feedback very quickly, you make a living wage, and you learn lots of useful skills. Going back to teaching is my “plan Z” right now and I’m glad I have it as an option.