But I know you expected kindness back when you posted that old aggressive post you’ve now deleted/rewritten though?
Also, everyone had been quite kind to you in forum discussion before that point [I remember from other discussion and actually liking what you wrote and you got a lot of upvotes] So it’s a little odd to say that you helped “until [EA] was unkind to you”. Maybe its more accurate to say “helped until people pushed back against your unkindness, [which you did start with that highly unusual post]”
That said I don’t think my response here was even unkind at all. I am going to say what I think but I recommmend you not take what I think personally. I made it overt that I was sorry for possibly embarrassing so I’m not sure what else I can do other than be silent which is I think a bad habit of EAs that we should break. Like fwiw I didn’t even downvote this post.
I’m not sure where the relevance to EA is though when it comes to the Asian rape. That’s what I’m confused about. I’m honestly not aware of such cases in EA and you’ve not given enough info that anyone can pin it down and understand what you are talking about. I definitely do “see that as a problem” but I have no idea what it has to do with EA.
[Relatedly I focus on the problems with the post and the claims it makes that I see as misleading and likely to lead to problems/misunderstandings in future. As a critic yourself I expect you to understand this.]
I’m not saying other communities aren’t taking action when it is brought to their doorstep (EA is too), I’m saying I suspect it is mostly only being brought to EAs doorstep or is being brought way out of proportion to EA involvement. And this rings my unfairness alarms.
Feel free to DM me with the high-powered person’s name. I’d greatly appreciate it.
No, you’re right that post was unkind. It was written in a time of great stress for me, and in DMs and emails—CEA WAS being very unkind to me which added to my stress. The unkind tone is one reason why I deleted it—the other being that I simply do not want a relationship with CEA or EA. ADD: I do stand by the content of the post, although not the tone I used at the time.
Also, everyone had been quite kind to you in forum discussion before that point. So it’s a little odd to say that you helped “until [EA] was unkind to you”. Maybe its more accurate to say “helped until people pushed back against your unkindness
Absolutely inaccurate—IMO. Additionally, I had 8 − 9 people DM in the forum when I was posting under J_J apologizing for how unkind everyone was to me right from the start, so it seems other people in your movement disagree with you as well. Further, I’m not speaking of the forum when I say “unkind”. I’m speaking of all the private emails, etc. I strongly feel that EA/CEA was silencing and bullying—I understand you/the movement overall may disagree—and I became angry and reactive. The way CEA treated me strongly brought up the way I was treated post-rape, [add—tbf, maybe someone else without my specific trauma wouldn’t feel as I did. If that’s how they treat people], I refuse to send more survivors their way. I’ve honestly not felt so gaslighted and triggered and upset in 5 − 6 years as I did then.
ADD: re: 30/point 1 in your response. You said you have “trouble trusting” because of my “liberal” definition (FYI: it took me a while to parse which “definition” you referred to) I am not (IMO) trying to mislead you as to having 30 cases that (IMO) are somehow tied to EA. I am using a different metric/definition than CEA/the movement. I am saying “I think CEA could be sued by the accuser OR accused in this many situations”. My impression from this forum & conversations with people in the movement is that you guys are saying “does this person (the accused only) have power and/or influence/is known in EA”. Additionally, I hadn’t and haven’t shared all the names and information with CEA/anyone. So when they say “4″ and “30”, those are two reasons why. This is also why I think it’s important that the movement look into their actions in these situations and ascertain whether or not they could end up in a situation in which they’d have to spend the time and money and reputation points to defend themselves—and then what the risk of legal liability would be in those situations as well.
You’re also ignoring that I had investigated and provided information to EA/CEA for four years prior with no benefit—no credit, no compensation—to myself, which WAS kind on my part. I hope that the years of kindness and help aren’t undone by a post, even if the post was unkind. And you’re not addressing that despite the unkind tone I took, I was ultimately trying to provide CEA/EA with information that could have helped you. I believe that the utilitarian response would be to find out what I was talking about (probably after things calmed down/mediation), and the emotive/reactionary response was the post response. I absolutely would not work with CEA/EA today, but at the time I thought that the information I had would be paramount in importance over the personal relationship dynamics/tension.
Your response was not unkind, but it was pretty defensive and reactive, as were many of my responses at the time of the Time article.
I stopped providing information to CEA after February. I will not provide names of accused or accusers to anyone in this movement, and will not DM you.
Maybe someone in this forum can start this conversation here or elsewhere—but I am also curious about why issues of liability/legal stuff aren’t brought up as important factors in these discussions. Outside of survivors being harmed, I would imagine that they are the most important factor. I feel a slight sense of shock whenever I’ve engaged with EA folks about how that’s not discussed, and most EA folks I’ve spoken to will move the conversation if I try to bring up those issues.
Add: Back on February 22, 2019 - an ex-friend who started an “EA org” (that is, an organization that is strongly funded through EA channels) said that it was likely that the person I accused of rape had strongly enough ties to EA to be banned. If I google his name + EA, some hits do come up.
I’ve never reported this to CEA or other organization. I don’t think the situation is important enough to have reported, but also, at the time and for several years after, I didn’t know I could report it anywhere.
Okay thanks for clarifying that you only mean that some private reception by CEA was unkind. Some others have attempted to paint EA forum response with a negative brush and if it isn’t true. People here might not be the most warm but they try pretty hard to avoid unkindness.
Tbh I think I understand your frustration a bit from experiences in my own life, like feeling like I’ve done someone’s dirty work or grunt work and then being pushed aside. That said, feelings being what they are (unreliable, even if if they are sometimes right), I still wonder if a misunderstanding happened about who you spoke to or if there was forgetting rather than willful dishonesty on anyone’s part, but I guess that is between you, them, and decision-makers. Although I’m more interested in the prevalance of sexual assault in EA and how that is handled, I wish you luck in your professional goals.
I agree with you about liability and have been finding that odd it hasn’t been mentioned too. That said, I think that shouldn’t be the main concern tbh, or even a primary one (there is so much else on the table to focus on). Also, publicizing things out of concern for CEA getting pinged for liability seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse. So personally, I’d just put that concern to the side and try to do the right thing, and take a lot of notes, and hope that trying to do the right thing washes out in court god forbid anyone tried to move forward with that. My understanding is that CEA is trying to do the right thing and has been for some time. It’s good to encourage people to try to do better.. I guess I just would want to see that as actual encouragement not like… worded in a way that easily strikes fear into the hearts of EAs that we are about to deal with another big public fiasco without having had adequate time to handle and respond to whatever last one.
I agree my response was defensive (and reactive though I tried to separate that bit out into a different comment). One of my intentions is definitely to defend EA (always with finding and protecting the truth as primary even more important goal though). Even if I go too far some of the time, at least I hopefully move the overton window toward defending EA as being acceptable and normal. I actually think people (not just EAs, but everybody) are morally obligated to defend themseves, and often others. Right now, the world spins based on claims and responses… accusations and rebuttals. As long as that’s the case, I think it’s almost always ethically warranted, even necessary, that someone come in and speak an honest, good-faith, altruistically-intentioned response that points out potential pitfalls, alternative considerations, and such. Frankly most people who stumble across this piece won’t be informed enough to do it themselves.
I quoted your comment by number so I can respond to each point you bring up.
(1) I disagree. Calling someone “scary”, accusing them of just wanting to get paid (after years of working for free AND turning down more lucrative requests to speak to the press & investors while I was still trying help CEA and EA overall), being doxxed—and the mods responding to other requests in the forum post while waiting multiple days (3 I believe, but it might have been 4) to respond to my multiple requests from me—none of that can be construed as “kindly” intended. And while my language is at times harsh, expresses frustration, and isn’t the way that EAs speak—at the end of the day, I’ve been trying to help the movement for years before giving up.
(2) Tbh I think I understand your frustration a bit from experiences in my own life, like feeling like I’ve done someone’s dirty work or grunt work and then being pushed aside. That said, feelings being what they are (unreliable, even if if they are sometimes right), I still wonder if a misunderstanding happened about who you spoke to or if there was forgetting rather than willful dishonesty on anyone’s part, but I guess that is between you, them, and decision-makers. Although I’m more interested in the prevalance of sexual assault in EA and how that is handled, I wish you luck in your professional goals.
I think this should be addressed in other ways—“this” being the specific claim you made that CEA forgot. Its pretty hard for me to believe someone forgets four years of passing around accusations
Re: I disagree about emotions. I sometimes find my emotions—eg, anxiety or fear—will alert me to situations that are unsafe before my rational brain catches up.
(3) Having spoken to CEA, being in contact with survivors who have spoken to CEA, and having dealt with this with CEA versus other groups in the bay area—I strongly disagree. But my underlying motive is to get rape to be taken seriously, and to create conditions in which CEA/EA and rape is exposed.
Additionally, when the Time article came out, I stated in the forum things that should be done, eg, policies around consent and bans. I knew very well that CEA wouldn’t hire me when I sent over a proposal, but I had hoped they’d explore the suggestions I made in that proposal with lawyers and experts. I gave them a roadmap to explore with others.
Re Also, publicizing things out of concern for CEA getting pinged for liability seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse.
IMO, after the past four years, the Time article, and the aforementioned points, the hammer that is the law and liability might scare them into action. In my earlier posts as J_J, I said I wanted to “call in” EA. You’ve shown you’re not receptive to being called in—literally, CEA has said it’s unproductive to talk to me. I understand that for many of you, this issue only came to light post-Time article, and my perspective is different because of the length of time and additional information. If the laws around defamation and the way defamation is being handled in the courts post-#metoo were different, I’d share more information. But such as the law is and my understanding of it, I don’t feel comfortable doing so.
Also—I’d imagine that people reading my words think I’m more likely to take accusations at face value because I “care about rape and survivors”, that I’m a bit of a fanatic/activist. I’d like to point out that I’m advocating for investigations of accusations and also advocating for CEA to not do things that could be construed as defamatory to allegations that are not yet investigated or proven in a court of law.
(4) So—see my point 1. Why is it that when you are defensive/reactive, it’s upvoted, and if I am, then it’s used as reasoning to discredit me? Why are huge presumptions/logical leaps made about what I say, those are used to slander/defame me/discredit me? For example, you presumed that the high power person was Vassar. Why is it that every time I point out my education or experience, I’m downvoted to oblivion and then others reading my posts can’t see that anymore?
Why is that I’m downvoted, called names, etc, if I also defend myself? I’d also like to point out that I’m a single individual, and you and the liaisons at CEA are part of a movement that has well-funded orgs backing you—that is why I call this treatment of me bullying. You’re (CEA and EA as a movement) more powerful than I am—and you have much greater power to deescalate—or even just ignore me.
lastly, i would like to point out that you and most in this thread are focusing on clearing EA’s reputation, which includes disavowing that rape brought to your attention is related to EA, and interpreting people calling out or calling in EA on rape as something personal to you/your movement. I think that approach is damaging EA’s reputation further. Being preemptive in fighting rape would be the best way to salvage your reputation and stop the “piling on”—even if you don’t care about rape—show you care about rape/abuse instead of leaning into defensiveness and reactivity. The way it comes across right now (to an admittedly very biased outsider) is that you see yourselves as victims, rather than victims you failed to protect. Changing the focus to them might help.
As an outsider that lives in an area with a high proportion of EA people and where EA is well known—people here generally thought you had a problem with rape even before the Time article.
She mentions above that its Catherine Low’s comment here that she considers defamatory: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/mhzAogryEKbaF9YCr/ea-30-14-rapes-and-my-not-so-good-experience-with-ea As far as I can tell, the claim is that Catherine Low was lying about when she first contacted the community health team, and that this was reputationally damaging because it was an attempt to make her look like a crazy liar, when (allegedly) Catherine Low knew that she had contacted them long before “about 7 months ago”.
But I know you expected kindness back when you posted that old aggressive post you’ve now deleted/rewritten though?
Also, everyone had been quite kind to you in forum discussion before that point [I remember from other discussion and actually liking what you wrote and you got a lot of upvotes] So it’s a little odd to say that you helped “until [EA] was unkind to you”. Maybe its more accurate to say “helped until people pushed back against your unkindness, [which you did start with that highly unusual post]”
That said I don’t think my response here was even unkind at all. I am going to say what I think but I recommmend you not take what I think personally. I made it overt that I was sorry for possibly embarrassing so I’m not sure what else I can do other than be silent which is I think a bad habit of EAs that we should break. Like fwiw I didn’t even downvote this post.
I’m not sure where the relevance to EA is though when it comes to the Asian rape. That’s what I’m confused about. I’m honestly not aware of such cases in EA and you’ve not given enough info that anyone can pin it down and understand what you are talking about. I definitely do “see that as a problem” but I have no idea what it has to do with EA.
[Relatedly I focus on the problems with the post and the claims it makes that I see as misleading and likely to lead to problems/misunderstandings in future. As a critic yourself I expect you to understand this.]
I’m not saying other communities aren’t taking action when it is brought to their doorstep (EA is too), I’m saying I suspect it is mostly only being brought to EAs doorstep or is being brought way out of proportion to EA involvement. And this rings my unfairness alarms.
Feel free to DM me with the high-powered person’s name. I’d greatly appreciate it.
No, you’re right that post was unkind. It was written in a time of great stress for me, and in DMs and emails—CEA WAS being very unkind to me which added to my stress. The unkind tone is one reason why I deleted it—the other being that I simply do not want a relationship with CEA or EA. ADD: I do stand by the content of the post, although not the tone I used at the time.
Absolutely inaccurate—IMO. Additionally, I had 8 − 9 people DM in the forum when I was posting under J_J apologizing for how unkind everyone was to me right from the start, so it seems other people in your movement disagree with you as well. Further, I’m not speaking of the forum when I say “unkind”. I’m speaking of all the private emails, etc. I strongly feel that EA/CEA was silencing and bullying—I understand you/the movement overall may disagree—and I became angry and reactive. The way CEA treated me strongly brought up the way I was treated post-rape, [add—tbf, maybe someone else without my specific trauma wouldn’t feel as I did. If that’s how they treat people], I refuse to send more survivors their way. I’ve honestly not felt so gaslighted and triggered and upset in 5 − 6 years as I did then.
ADD: re: 30/point 1 in your response. You said you have “trouble trusting” because of my “liberal” definition (FYI: it took me a while to parse which “definition” you referred to) I am not (IMO) trying to mislead you as to having 30 cases that (IMO) are somehow tied to EA. I am using a different metric/definition than CEA/the movement. I am saying “I think CEA could be sued by the accuser OR accused in this many situations”. My impression from this forum & conversations with people in the movement is that you guys are saying “does this person (the accused only) have power and/or influence/is known in EA”. Additionally, I hadn’t and haven’t shared all the names and information with CEA/anyone. So when they say “4″ and “30”, those are two reasons why. This is also why I think it’s important that the movement look into their actions in these situations and ascertain whether or not they could end up in a situation in which they’d have to spend the time and money and reputation points to defend themselves—and then what the risk of legal liability would be in those situations as well.
You’re also ignoring that I had investigated and provided information to EA/CEA for four years prior with no benefit—no credit, no compensation—to myself, which WAS kind on my part. I hope that the years of kindness and help aren’t undone by a post, even if the post was unkind. And you’re not addressing that despite the unkind tone I took, I was ultimately trying to provide CEA/EA with information that could have helped you. I believe that the utilitarian response would be to find out what I was talking about (probably after things calmed down/mediation), and the emotive/reactionary response was the post response. I absolutely would not work with CEA/EA today, but at the time I thought that the information I had would be paramount in importance over the personal relationship dynamics/tension.
Your response was not unkind, but it was pretty defensive and reactive, as were many of my responses at the time of the Time article.
I stopped providing information to CEA after February. I will not provide names of accused or accusers to anyone in this movement, and will not DM you.
Maybe someone in this forum can start this conversation here or elsewhere—but I am also curious about why issues of liability/legal stuff aren’t brought up as important factors in these discussions. Outside of survivors being harmed, I would imagine that they are the most important factor. I feel a slight sense of shock whenever I’ve engaged with EA folks about how that’s not discussed, and most EA folks I’ve spoken to will move the conversation if I try to bring up those issues.
Add: Back on February 22, 2019 - an ex-friend who started an “EA org” (that is, an organization that is strongly funded through EA channels) said that it was likely that the person I accused of rape had strongly enough ties to EA to be banned. If I google his name + EA, some hits do come up.
I’ve never reported this to CEA or other organization. I don’t think the situation is important enough to have reported, but also, at the time and for several years after, I didn’t know I could report it anywhere.
Sorry it took me so long to come back.
Okay thanks for clarifying that you only mean that some private reception by CEA was unkind. Some others have attempted to paint EA forum response with a negative brush and if it isn’t true. People here might not be the most warm but they try pretty hard to avoid unkindness.
Tbh I think I understand your frustration a bit from experiences in my own life, like feeling like I’ve done someone’s dirty work or grunt work and then being pushed aside. That said, feelings being what they are (unreliable, even if if they are sometimes right), I still wonder if a misunderstanding happened about who you spoke to or if there was forgetting rather than willful dishonesty on anyone’s part, but I guess that is between you, them, and decision-makers. Although I’m more interested in the prevalance of sexual assault in EA and how that is handled, I wish you luck in your professional goals.
I agree with you about liability and have been finding that odd it hasn’t been mentioned too. That said, I think that shouldn’t be the main concern tbh, or even a primary one (there is so much else on the table to focus on). Also, publicizing things out of concern for CEA getting pinged for liability seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse. So personally, I’d just put that concern to the side and try to do the right thing, and take a lot of notes, and hope that trying to do the right thing washes out in court god forbid anyone tried to move forward with that. My understanding is that CEA is trying to do the right thing and has been for some time. It’s good to encourage people to try to do better.. I guess I just would want to see that as actual encouragement not like… worded in a way that easily strikes fear into the hearts of EAs that we are about to deal with another big public fiasco without having had adequate time to handle and respond to whatever last one.
I agree my response was defensive (and reactive though I tried to separate that bit out into a different comment). One of my intentions is definitely to defend EA (always with finding and protecting the truth as primary even more important goal though). Even if I go too far some of the time, at least I hopefully move the overton window toward defending EA as being acceptable and normal. I actually think people (not just EAs, but everybody) are morally obligated to defend themseves, and often others. Right now, the world spins based on claims and responses… accusations and rebuttals. As long as that’s the case, I think it’s almost always ethically warranted, even necessary, that someone come in and speak an honest, good-faith, altruistically-intentioned response that points out potential pitfalls, alternative considerations, and such. Frankly most people who stumble across this piece won’t be informed enough to do it themselves.
Anyway, best of luck.
I quoted your comment by number so I can respond to each point you bring up.
(1) I disagree. Calling someone “scary”, accusing them of just wanting to get paid (after years of working for free AND turning down more lucrative requests to speak to the press & investors while I was still trying help CEA and EA overall), being doxxed—and the mods responding to other requests in the forum post while waiting multiple days (3 I believe, but it might have been 4) to respond to my multiple requests from me—none of that can be construed as “kindly” intended. And while my language is at times harsh, expresses frustration, and isn’t the way that EAs speak—at the end of the day, I’ve been trying to help the movement for years before giving up.
I think this should be addressed in other ways—“this” being the specific claim you made that CEA forgot. Its pretty hard for me to believe someone forgets four years of passing around accusations
Re: I disagree about emotions. I sometimes find my emotions—eg, anxiety or fear—will alert me to situations that are unsafe before my rational brain catches up.
(3) Having spoken to CEA, being in contact with survivors who have spoken to CEA, and having dealt with this with CEA versus other groups in the bay area—I strongly disagree. But my underlying motive is to get rape to be taken seriously, and to create conditions in which CEA/EA and rape is exposed.
Additionally, when the Time article came out, I stated in the forum things that should be done, eg, policies around consent and bans. I knew very well that CEA wouldn’t hire me when I sent over a proposal, but I had hoped they’d explore the suggestions I made in that proposal with lawyers and experts. I gave them a roadmap to explore with others.
IMO, after the past four years, the Time article, and the aforementioned points, the hammer that is the law and liability might scare them into action. In my earlier posts as J_J, I said I wanted to “call in” EA. You’ve shown you’re not receptive to being called in—literally, CEA has said it’s unproductive to talk to me. I understand that for many of you, this issue only came to light post-Time article, and my perspective is different because of the length of time and additional information. If the laws around defamation and the way defamation is being handled in the courts post-#metoo were different, I’d share more information. But such as the law is and my understanding of it, I don’t feel comfortable doing so.
Also—I’d imagine that people reading my words think I’m more likely to take accusations at face value because I “care about rape and survivors”, that I’m a bit of a fanatic/activist. I’d like to point out that I’m advocating for investigations of accusations and also advocating for CEA to not do things that could be construed as defamatory to allegations that are not yet investigated or proven in a court of law.
(4) So—see my point 1. Why is it that when you are defensive/reactive, it’s upvoted, and if I am, then it’s used as reasoning to discredit me? Why are huge presumptions/logical leaps made about what I say, those are used to slander/defame me/discredit me? For example, you presumed that the high power person was Vassar. Why is it that every time I point out my education or experience, I’m downvoted to oblivion and then others reading my posts can’t see that anymore?
Why is that I’m downvoted, called names, etc, if I also defend myself? I’d also like to point out that I’m a single individual, and you and the liaisons at CEA are part of a movement that has well-funded orgs backing you—that is why I call this treatment of me bullying. You’re (CEA and EA as a movement) more powerful than I am—and you have much greater power to deescalate—or even just ignore me.
lastly, i would like to point out that you and most in this thread are focusing on clearing EA’s reputation, which includes disavowing that rape brought to your attention is related to EA, and interpreting people calling out or calling in EA on rape as something personal to you/your movement. I think that approach is damaging EA’s reputation further. Being preemptive in fighting rape would be the best way to salvage your reputation and stop the “piling on”—even if you don’t care about rape—show you care about rape/abuse instead of leaning into defensiveness and reactivity. The way it comes across right now (to an admittedly very biased outsider) is that you see yourselves as victims, rather than victims you failed to protect. Changing the focus to them might help.
As an outsider that lives in an area with a high proportion of EA people and where EA is well known—people here generally thought you had a problem with rape even before the Time article.
Im not sure if I missed a link or a quote somewhere in the comments, but are you able to say what the defamatory statements were?
She mentions above that its Catherine Low’s comment here that she considers defamatory: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/mhzAogryEKbaF9YCr/ea-30-14-rapes-and-my-not-so-good-experience-with-ea As far as I can tell, the claim is that Catherine Low was lying about when she first contacted the community health team, and that this was reputationally damaging because it was an attempt to make her look like a crazy liar, when (allegedly) Catherine Low knew that she had contacted them long before “about 7 months ago”.