1(“the risk of myocarditis was higher after vaccination than SARS-CoV-2 infection”);
The quote is incomplete, you omitted an important part. This is the full quote: “Associations were stronger in younger men <40 years for all vaccines and after a second dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine, where the risk of myocarditis was higher after vaccination than SARS-CoV-2 infection.” You also ignore the overall conclusion of the paper which says “Overall, the risk of myocarditis is greater after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination”.
2(“In boys with prior infection and no comorbidities, even one dose carried more risk than benefit”).
The second study you link there is also only about male adolescents. This study has a general conclusion as well: “Our findings strongly support individualized paediatric COVID-19 vaccination strategies which weigh protection against severe disease vs. risks of vaccine-associated myo/pericarditis.” I don’t know about the other study, but this one uses VAERS data, which has been abused due to its unverifiability.
Indeed, as did Belgium. Important to note here is that these restrictions were only for a specific subset of the population, and only for non-mRNA vaccines. mRNA vaccines are fine. This is not a reason to not get vaccinated at all.
It doesn’t have to in order to be effective. It slows down transmission and reduces the number of hospitalized people and deaths. It also reduces severity of symptoms for those who are vaccinated and go get the virus.
Have you read even the abstract of this paper? You are purposely framing it in such a way that supports your argument. The paper talks specifically about mandates, not recommendations, as EAG does. The study also mentions in its limitations that many adverse effects may be due to the nocebo effect or anxiety. The data from this study comes in part from the Wellcome Trust, which is known for having financial stakes in pharmaceutical companies which remains unreported in its conflict of interest and that it gains financially from the pandemic. The WHO has recommended the vaccine anyway.
The reason for your downvotes is that you seem to believe vaccines, at least at this point in the pandemic, are harmful, but most of your evidence supports the opposite of what you say.
I agree with you, that it may be, that the benefits of vaccination outweigh risks, for population as a whole.
Please also narrow in to my actual point, which is that for large demographics, it’s not a good idea to now get double-vaccinated. Whereas, EAG recommends all attendees to get double vaccinated. (Or at least they did; they seem to have changed their wording just now as a result of this post.)
You want to talk about other demographics, or even the population as a whole? Let’s do it, as an additional topic. As I don’t see good risk-benefit analysis, with general background of natural immunity, etc, for other age groups. And am curious to know more. Although, again, this would be a separate topic from what I am stating above.
The countries that have advised against double-vaccination, in my link, were advising against Moderna, which indeed is an mrna vaccine. Think you need to click that link.
″ It slows down transmission ”—this was definitely true in the past. I’m not sure if someone with natural immunity (almost everyone), who now gets double-vaccinated, will be substantially slowing down transmission, over what they were already doing. Source needed.
“It also reduces severity of symptoms for those who are vaccinated and go get the virus”—even for the 90% of people who have natural immunity… the oldish formula, double-vaccination will do this today? I don’t disbelieve you. But again, source needed.
The booster article: I understand your point on mandate vs. recommendation. Mandates would certainly be much worse. The main point here is just that it’s probably wise to NOT mandate OR recommend, for all demographics.
Very strange to me that you call a disease that killed roughly 267k people in the U.S. in 2022 “not particularly dangerous.” 2022 deaths were almost all omicron variants.
Few if any attendees at EAG are children, so it is hard to see the relevance of vaccine risk-benefit calculation for young boys.
You raise some valid points but I think you post got so downvoted because it is hard to take your overall concern seriously when you link to wildly unscientific and frankly loony-sounding articles like the free press one (It could have been written about literally anything: “have you noticed that ever since the Seattle Seahawks won the super bowl, the rate of gun violence in the U.S. has skyrocketed?? I’m just asking questions!”)
I say this as someone who is generally opposed to vaccine mandates and thinks these sorts of decision are best left to individuals outside of very extreme situations.
I linked to a variety of studies, which show that basic risk-benefit calculation says: for large demographics, do NOT get double vaccinated in current times.
Please be specific about what I am posting that is “wildly unscientific.”
Yes one of my linked studies was specific to teenage boys. My other links include men 30 and under etc. In either case, we’re talking about large demographics of millions of people that shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, and which certainly cover EAG attendees. I’m not sure why you would zoom to just one of my sources on teenage boys, although I did think that was important to note as well.
I would like to see these risk-benefit frameworks for other age groups as well, for current times. And which include basic background info like natural immunity.
If you have links to any info like this I’m interested. These are just the good risk-benefit studies I could find personally.
The Free Press link at the end, I included only as a concise thru-way to a variety of other studies.
I don’t think you read it; you seem to believe it has the exact opposite conclusion of what you are implying it does. At least, I have no idea what you are getting at with your analogy.
We may have different definitions of “not particularly dangerous,” but this is my least important point and I’m happy to let it go.
I linked to a variety of studies, which show that basic risk-benefit calculation says: for large demographics, do NOT get double vaccinated in current times.
Please be specific about what I am posting that is “wildly unscientific.”
I was specifically referring to the free press article that you linked to at the end . I understand that the authors are not explicitly saying that covid vaccines caused sudden deaths, and for the record I take seriously both the failure of the public health establishment to be transparent (about many different covid-related issues) and also the risk of myocarditis associated with vaccines. The article has terrible reasoning throughout, but just as an example, it reads
The second study, from Germany, reported autopsy findings from 25 people who died unexpectedly within 20 days of receiving a Covid-19 vaccination. In four, acute myocarditis appeared to be the cause of death. Notably, the four affected persons were older adults. These results are not definitive, but the authors called for more detailed studies exploring the possibility of fatal adverse events from the vaccine.
There is never any mention (in the linked article—did not read the original study) of how many people were in the population of vaccinated individuals that the study looked at nor the incidence of myocarditis in the unvaccinated or even pre-covid population. These kind of cherry-picked and context-free statistics are present throughout the article and it has a completely disingenuous tone of “we’re just asking questions” when in fact it seems clear to me that the goal is to intentionally mislead the reader about the risks of vaccination.
With that said, I fully believe that it should be up to individuals to weigh these risk for themselves. Which is consistent with EAG “recommending” vaccination—I personally don’t really care if they “recommend” daily handstand practice—there are bigger credibility fish to free.
If you are not liking that one study, because it doesn’t do a risk-benefit for both sides… then just refer to the other studies I link more prominently to, which do.
If you think it is “terrible reasoning” to not do a risk-benefit of both sides, before making explicit or implicit statements… we are certainly on the same page… This is my issue with EAG’s recommendation.
Handstands are not in the same ballpark as hospitalization for permanent heart damage. Perhaps I take this more seriously because I know people this happened to. Just like I also know people who died from covid. -- Let’s keep on top of the available risk-benefit basics, and realize that the situation today is much different than 1, 2, and 3 years ago.
Also, yes, this is just a little fine-print statement from EAG, but I see the same statements and logic elsewhere, it seems embedded.
Thank you Monica for taking some time out of your day to engage with me and my ideas and links, and for keeping an eye on the viewpoints we have in common, our similarities. I appreciate you. And I think you are making good points.
As expected, this is getting more downvotes overall, at least for now.
I hope to get some feedback as to what specific nuances anyone thinks I am missing.
At the risk of wasting my time on this.
The quote is incomplete, you omitted an important part. This is the full quote: “Associations were stronger in younger men <40 years for all vaccines and after a second dose of mRNA-1273 vaccine, where the risk of myocarditis was higher after vaccination than SARS-CoV-2 infection.” You also ignore the overall conclusion of the paper which says “Overall, the risk of myocarditis is greater after SARS-CoV-2 infection than after COVID-19 vaccination”.
The second study you link there is also only about male adolescents. This study has a general conclusion as well: “Our findings strongly support individualized paediatric COVID-19 vaccination strategies which weigh protection against severe disease vs. risks of vaccine-associated myo/pericarditis.” I don’t know about the other study, but this one uses VAERS data, which has been abused due to its unverifiability.
Indeed, as did Belgium. Important to note here is that these restrictions were only for a specific subset of the population, and only for non-mRNA vaccines. mRNA vaccines are fine. This is not a reason to not get vaccinated at all.
It doesn’t have to in order to be effective. It slows down transmission and reduces the number of hospitalized people and deaths. It also reduces severity of symptoms for those who are vaccinated and go get the virus.
Have you read even the abstract of this paper? You are purposely framing it in such a way that supports your argument. The paper talks specifically about mandates, not recommendations, as EAG does. The study also mentions in its limitations that many adverse effects may be due to the nocebo effect or anxiety. The data from this study comes in part from the Wellcome Trust, which is known for having financial stakes in pharmaceutical companies which remains unreported in its conflict of interest and that it gains financially from the pandemic. The WHO has recommended the vaccine anyway.
The reason for your downvotes is that you seem to believe vaccines, at least at this point in the pandemic, are harmful, but most of your evidence supports the opposite of what you say.
I agree with you, that it may be, that the benefits of vaccination outweigh risks, for population as a whole.
Please also narrow in to my actual point, which is that for large demographics, it’s not a good idea to now get double-vaccinated. Whereas, EAG recommends all attendees to get double vaccinated. (Or at least they did; they seem to have changed their wording just now as a result of this post.)
You want to talk about other demographics, or even the population as a whole? Let’s do it, as an additional topic. As I don’t see good risk-benefit analysis, with general background of natural immunity, etc, for other age groups. And am curious to know more. Although, again, this would be a separate topic from what I am stating above.
The countries that have advised against double-vaccination, in my link, were advising against Moderna, which indeed is an mrna vaccine. Think you need to click that link.
″ It slows down transmission ”—this was definitely true in the past. I’m not sure if someone with natural immunity (almost everyone), who now gets double-vaccinated, will be substantially slowing down transmission, over what they were already doing. Source needed.
“It also reduces severity of symptoms for those who are vaccinated and go get the virus”—even for the 90% of people who have natural immunity… the oldish formula, double-vaccination will do this today? I don’t disbelieve you. But again, source needed.
The booster article: I understand your point on mandate vs. recommendation. Mandates would certainly be much worse. The main point here is just that it’s probably wise to NOT mandate OR recommend, for all demographics.
Very strange to me that you call a disease that killed roughly 267k people in the U.S. in 2022 “not particularly dangerous.” 2022 deaths were almost all omicron variants.
Few if any attendees at EAG are children, so it is hard to see the relevance of vaccine risk-benefit calculation for young boys.
You raise some valid points but I think you post got so downvoted because it is hard to take your overall concern seriously when you link to wildly unscientific and frankly loony-sounding articles like the free press one (It could have been written about literally anything: “have you noticed that ever since the Seattle Seahawks won the super bowl, the rate of gun violence in the U.S. has skyrocketed?? I’m just asking questions!”)
I say this as someone who is generally opposed to vaccine mandates and thinks these sorts of decision are best left to individuals outside of very extreme situations.
I linked to a variety of studies, which show that basic risk-benefit calculation says: for large demographics, do NOT get double vaccinated in current times.
Please be specific about what I am posting that is “wildly unscientific.”
Yes one of my linked studies was specific to teenage boys. My other links include men 30 and under etc. In either case, we’re talking about large demographics of millions of people that shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand, and which certainly cover EAG attendees. I’m not sure why you would zoom to just one of my sources on teenage boys, although I did think that was important to note as well.
I would like to see these risk-benefit frameworks for other age groups as well, for current times. And which include basic background info like natural immunity.
If you have links to any info like this I’m interested. These are just the good risk-benefit studies I could find personally.
The Free Press link at the end, I included only as a concise thru-way to a variety of other studies.
I don’t think you read it; you seem to believe it has the exact opposite conclusion of what you are implying it does. At least, I have no idea what you are getting at with your analogy.
We may have different definitions of “not particularly dangerous,” but this is my least important point and I’m happy to let it go.
I was specifically referring to the free press article that you linked to at the end . I understand that the authors are not explicitly saying that covid vaccines caused sudden deaths, and for the record I take seriously both the failure of the public health establishment to be transparent (about many different covid-related issues) and also the risk of myocarditis associated with vaccines. The article has terrible reasoning throughout, but just as an example, it reads
There is never any mention (in the linked article—did not read the original study) of how many people were in the population of vaccinated individuals that the study looked at nor the incidence of myocarditis in the unvaccinated or even pre-covid population. These kind of cherry-picked and context-free statistics are present throughout the article and it has a completely disingenuous tone of “we’re just asking questions” when in fact it seems clear to me that the goal is to intentionally mislead the reader about the risks of vaccination.
With that said, I fully believe that it should be up to individuals to weigh these risk for themselves. Which is consistent with EAG “recommending” vaccination—I personally don’t really care if they “recommend” daily handstand practice—there are bigger credibility fish to free.
If you are not liking that one study, because it doesn’t do a risk-benefit for both sides… then just refer to the other studies I link more prominently to, which do.
If you think it is “terrible reasoning” to not do a risk-benefit of both sides, before making explicit or implicit statements… we are certainly on the same page… This is my issue with EAG’s recommendation.
Handstands are not in the same ballpark as hospitalization for permanent heart damage. Perhaps I take this more seriously because I know people this happened to. Just like I also know people who died from covid. -- Let’s keep on top of the available risk-benefit basics, and realize that the situation today is much different than 1, 2, and 3 years ago.
Also, yes, this is just a little fine-print statement from EAG, but I see the same statements and logic elsewhere, it seems embedded.
Thank you Monica for taking some time out of your day to engage with me and my ideas and links, and for keeping an eye on the viewpoints we have in common, our similarities. I appreciate you. And I think you are making good points.