One thing that might be worth noting: I was only able to invest that many resources because of things like (i) having had an initial runway of more than $10,000 (a significant fraction of which I basically ‘inherited’ / was given to me for things like academic excellence that weren’t very effortful for me), (ii) having a good relationship to my sufficiently well-off parents that moving back in with them always was a safe backup option, (iii) having access to various other forms of social support (that came with real costs for several underemployed or otherwise struggling people in my network).
I do think current conditions mean that we ‘lose’ more people in less comfortable positions than we otherwise would.
Yeah, this is one reason Open Phil pays people for doing our remote work tests, so that people who don’t happen to have runway/similar can still go through our process. Possibly more EA orgs should do this if they aren’t already.
Just a thank you for sharing, it can be scary to share your personal background like this but it’s extremely helpful for people looking into EA careers.
What do you mean by “lose”? If they stop applying to EA orgs, but take another reasonably impactful job, I’d see it as potentially positive—I don’t want people to spend so much time applying for EA org jobs!
I think there are at least two effects where the world loses impact: (i) People in less privileged positions not applying for EA jobs; sometimes one of these would actually have been the best candidate. (ii) More speculatively (in the sense that I can’t point to a specific example, though my prior is this effect is very likely to be non-zero), people in less privileged positions might realize that it’s not possible for them to apply for many of the roles they perceived to be described as highest-impact and this might reduce their EA motivation/dedication in general, and make them feel unwelcome in the community.
I emphatically agree that them taking another potentially impactful job is positive. In fact, as I said in another comment, I wish there was more attention on and support for identifying and promoting such jobs.
I absolutely agree that losing out on less-privileged colleagues would be a detriment to EA! I just think it would be better for those individuals and the world if they start working sooner, rather than spending months applying for jobs at EA organisations.
Something that seems to be missing from this (very valuable) conversation is that many people also spend months looking for non-EA jobs that they have a personal fit for. I’m mainly aware of people with science PhDs, either applying for industry jobs or applying for professorships. It is not uncommon for this to be a months long process with multiple 10s of applications, as being reported here for EA job searching. The case of where this goes faster in industry jobs tends to be because the applicant is well established as having a key set of skills that a company needs and/or a personal network connection with people involved in hiring at the company. Some academics get lucky just applying for a few professorships, but others apply to 50+ jobs, which easily takes 100+ hours, perhaps many more. And in both cases you spend lots of time over the preceding years learning about the job search process, how to write cover letters, teaching statements, etc.
I definitely feel some of this myself, even from being “less privileged” only in the sense that my degree is from a state university. (On most dimensions I am very privileged.)
Also I’m from the Midwest, and I feel like there’s a subtle coastal > Midwest dynamic that’s at play. (Really a subset of a larger coastal > anywhere-that-isn’t-coastal dynamic)
One thing that might be worth noting: I was only able to invest that many resources because of things like (i) having had an initial runway of more than $10,000 (a significant fraction of which I basically ‘inherited’ / was given to me for things like academic excellence that weren’t very effortful for me), (ii) having a good relationship to my sufficiently well-off parents that moving back in with them always was a safe backup option, (iii) having access to various other forms of social support (that came with real costs for several underemployed or otherwise struggling people in my network).
I do think current conditions mean that we ‘lose’ more people in less comfortable positions than we otherwise would.
+1 to noting that the current recruitment configuration strongly favors elite (& highly privileged) applicants.
Yeah, this is one reason Open Phil pays people for doing our remote work tests, so that people who don’t happen to have runway/similar can still go through our process. Possibly more EA orgs should do this if they aren’t already.
I’d like to make this into a norm, but it does also pose a barrier for funding constrained EA organizations by increasing the costs of hiring.
I think it’s fine to be a “norm, if you can afford it.”
If you can’t afford it, doesn’t that suggest that earning to give might not be such a bad choice after all?
Yes. Earning to give is a good choice and I’ve not suggested otherwise.
(Peter has been one of several people continuing to argue “earning to give is undervalued, most orgs could still do useful things with more funding”.)
Just a thank you for sharing, it can be scary to share your personal background like this but it’s extremely helpful for people looking into EA careers.
What do you mean by “lose”? If they stop applying to EA orgs, but take another reasonably impactful job, I’d see it as potentially positive—I don’t want people to spend so much time applying for EA org jobs!
I think there are at least two effects where the world loses impact: (i) People in less privileged positions not applying for EA jobs; sometimes one of these would actually have been the best candidate. (ii) More speculatively (in the sense that I can’t point to a specific example, though my prior is this effect is very likely to be non-zero), people in less privileged positions might realize that it’s not possible for them to apply for many of the roles they perceived to be described as highest-impact and this might reduce their EA motivation/dedication in general, and make them feel unwelcome in the community.
I emphatically agree that them taking another potentially impactful job is positive. In fact, as I said in another comment, I wish there was more attention on and support for identifying and promoting such jobs.
I absolutely agree that losing out on less-privileged colleagues would be a detriment to EA! I just think it would be better for those individuals and the world if they start working sooner, rather than spending months applying for jobs at EA organisations.
Something that seems to be missing from this (very valuable) conversation is that many people also spend months looking for non-EA jobs that they have a personal fit for. I’m mainly aware of people with science PhDs, either applying for industry jobs or applying for professorships. It is not uncommon for this to be a months long process with multiple 10s of applications, as being reported here for EA job searching. The case of where this goes faster in industry jobs tends to be because the applicant is well established as having a key set of skills that a company needs and/or a personal network connection with people involved in hiring at the company. Some academics get lucky just applying for a few professorships, but others apply to 50+ jobs, which easily takes 100+ hours, perhaps many more. And in both cases you spend lots of time over the preceding years learning about the job search process, how to write cover letters, teaching statements, etc.
I definitely feel some of this myself, even from being “less privileged” only in the sense that my degree is from a state university. (On most dimensions I am very privileged.)
Also I’m from the Midwest, and I feel like there’s a subtle coastal > Midwest dynamic that’s at play. (Really a subset of a larger coastal > anywhere-that-isn’t-coastal dynamic)