I’m trying to choose between doubling down on skills in software engineering or branching out with the goal of working on AI safety longer term. I get the impression that a lot of people are in a similar position.
For me, my undergrad was an unusual mix of things but included Maths, Music (!) and Computer Science. I got good grades and I think there’s a reasonable chance of my getting into a university like Oxford, Cambridge or Imperial to study a Masters and perhaps subsequently a PhD in Computer Science/AI.
Currently I’m paid well and developing a fair amount of expertise as a software engineer. I’ve been at it for ~4 years and gained a fair amount of respect and responsibility; most likely on the cusp of a ‘senior’ promotion within months. Sticking at the engineering, I might be able to give £10s of thousands/year or more, perhaps sustained over a few decades, and there’s also a chance I could find myself doing impactful direct work or being in a position to influence the direction of large forces in tech.
On the other hand, from the work I’ve done and investigations in my own time I think my temperament and working style suit research, but I’ve little direct evidence of that so far and I’d need to prove that to myself and others. I’m thinking of a Masters as being a great way to do that. I’ve enjoyed several recommended online courses in ML and statsy things as well as a little tinkering on toy projects. On this evidence my capacities appear to align well with applying and implementing machine learning but I think research and policy have higher leverage over future flourishing.
Is applying for Masters courses in AI/ML is a sensible next exploration? One catch is that some of my current compensation is in equity which vests over time, meaning making a change would sacrifice some earnings.
That sounds like a great position to be in! This seems like a tough call because both options look high impact in expectation. On the plus side, that means that either decision is a reasonable one to make.
Based on what you’ve said about the online courses and projects you’ve done, it sounds right to me that doing a Masters is the natural next step for testing out whether you’re a good fit for research. Anonymous_123’s suggestion of asking your employer about taking a year out to do a Masters sounds like a great plan. I also agree with them that waiting for the promotion sounds worth it.
You don’t seem to mention working on AI safety as a software engineer (for example in a role like this), or transitioning to ML engineering to work on safety (though maybe that’s what you were thinking about with ‘impactful direct work’. You could perhaps reach out to effective altruists who had done AI safety engineering such as Richard Ngo to get a better sense of how to compare the value of that with research and policy. I guess I tentatively agree that if you’re a great fit for research that would likely be more impactful, but it seems worth looking into.
I welcome the reinforcement that a) it is indeed a tough call and b) I’m sane and they’re good options! Thank you for the encouragement, and the advice.
I remain fuzzy on what shape ‘impactful direct work’ could take, and I’m not sure to what degree keeping my mind ‘open’ in that sense is rational (the better to capture emergent opportunities) vs merely comforting (specifying a path is scary and procastinating is emotionally safer)! I acknowledge that my tentative principal goal besides donations, if I continue engineering growth, is indeed working on safety. The MIRI job link is interesting. I’d be pleased and proud to work in that sort of role (though I’m likely to remain in the UK at least for the near future).
Thank you for the suggestion to talk to Richard or others. I’ve gathered a few accounts from friends I know well who have gone into further degrees in other disciplines, and I expect it would be useful to complement that with evidence from others to help better predict personal fit. I wouldn’t know whom to talk to about impact on a long-term engineering track.
I took part in the inaugural SERI MATS programme in 2021-2022 (where incidentally I interacted with Richard), and started an AI Safety PhD at Oxford in 22.
I’m now working for the AI Safety Institute (UK Gov) since Jan 2024 as a hybrid technical expert, utilising my engineering and DS background, alongside AI/ML research and threat modelling. Likely to continue such work, there or elsewhere. Unsure if I’ll finish my PhD in the end, as a result, but I don’t regret it: I produced a little research, met some great collaborators, and had fun while learning as a consequence!
Between the original thread and my leaving for PhD, I’d say I grew my engineering, DS, and project management skills a little, though diminishing, while also doing a lot of AIS prep. My total income also went up while I remained FT employed. This was due for a slowdown as a consequence of stock movements and vesting, but regardless I definitely forwent a lot of money thanks to becoming a student again (and then a researcher rather than a high-paid engineer)! As far as I can tell this is the main price I paid, in terms of both personal situation and impact, and perhaps I should have made the move sooner (though having money in the bank is very freeing and enables indirect impact).
Hey Oliver, this is a tough call. I would hold out for the promotion and vesting if it’s only a couple years. Personally, I did a MS in CS/ML part time while working. It was a little brutal at times, took almost 4 years, and limited my choice of schools. But it was very good for my career, since I didn’t have to sacrifice any job progression time. It’s not the right choice for everyone (I don’t have kids, so more flexibility), but it’s one option.
I will say that while a year or two to wait for a promotion/vesting might seem like a lot, it will fly by, and you will be in a very strong position from there. If you are donating and enjoying your job in the meantime, all the better!
If possible, I wonder if you could negotiate a 1.5-2 year break from your company to go for the MS, pause the vesting (rather than lose it), and come back in at the senior position. This would be the best of both worlds if you could swing it, I’ve definitely heard stories like that. If you get into a top school, you could have good leverage because it looks good for your company. I’ve even known people to swing the deal so that the company pays the tuition with a 2 year commitment after. If after a year you love research, back out of the deal and continue for the PhD.
Sounds like you are in a good position right now for all the reasons you state, so be careful before throwing that away, you could always get unlucky and find yourself simply starting over at a new company after getting the degree.
Oh, and regarding the degree itself… I liked my MS CS program for the most part. The cost of tuition is becoming a tougher sell with all the cheap options to learn online. Hour-for-hour, you could probably get a better education by reading articles and practicing skills, because you can learn exactly what you want, and classes are not quite as cutting edge as podcasts/articles/meetups/etc.. For example my neural nets class taught theory but no practical skills like tensorflow/keras/pytorch, which really annoyed me. But the structure does help you stay focused and organized for multiple years. Mine was online, so I can’t speak to the value of networking. The value of the degree on the resume is definitely real, but only a little better than 2 years of experience, and probably not much better than a promotion. I can’t speak directly to a PhD, but I was on the fence, skipped it, and definitely do not regret my decision.
I really appreciate these data points! Actually it’s interesting you mention the networking aspect—one of the factors that would push me towards more higher education is the (real or imagined?) networking opportunities. Though I get on very well with most people I work or study with, I’m not an instinctive ‘networker’ and I think for me, improving that could be a factor with relatively high marginal return.
As for learning practical skills… I’d hope to get some from a higher degree but if that were all I wanted I might indeed stick to Coursera and the like! It’s the research aspect I’d really like to explore my fit for.
Trying to negotiate a break with the company had crossed my mind but sounds hard. Thanks for the nudge and anecdata about that possibility. It would be a big win if possible!
I’m really glad to hear that your path has been working out without regret. I hope that continues. :)
I’m trying to choose between doubling down on skills in software engineering or branching out with the goal of working on AI safety longer term. I get the impression that a lot of people are in a similar position.
For me, my undergrad was an unusual mix of things but included Maths, Music (!) and Computer Science. I got good grades and I think there’s a reasonable chance of my getting into a university like Oxford, Cambridge or Imperial to study a Masters and perhaps subsequently a PhD in Computer Science/AI.
Currently I’m paid well and developing a fair amount of expertise as a software engineer. I’ve been at it for ~4 years and gained a fair amount of respect and responsibility; most likely on the cusp of a ‘senior’ promotion within months. Sticking at the engineering, I might be able to give £10s of thousands/year or more, perhaps sustained over a few decades, and there’s also a chance I could find myself doing impactful direct work or being in a position to influence the direction of large forces in tech.
On the other hand, from the work I’ve done and investigations in my own time I think my temperament and working style suit research, but I’ve little direct evidence of that so far and I’d need to prove that to myself and others. I’m thinking of a Masters as being a great way to do that. I’ve enjoyed several recommended online courses in ML and statsy things as well as a little tinkering on toy projects. On this evidence my capacities appear to align well with applying and implementing machine learning but I think research and policy have higher leverage over future flourishing.
Is applying for Masters courses in AI/ML is a sensible next exploration? One catch is that some of my current compensation is in equity which vests over time, meaning making a change would sacrifice some earnings.
That sounds like a great position to be in! This seems like a tough call because both options look high impact in expectation. On the plus side, that means that either decision is a reasonable one to make.
Based on what you’ve said about the online courses and projects you’ve done, it sounds right to me that doing a Masters is the natural next step for testing out whether you’re a good fit for research. Anonymous_123’s suggestion of asking your employer about taking a year out to do a Masters sounds like a great plan. I also agree with them that waiting for the promotion sounds worth it.
You don’t seem to mention working on AI safety as a software engineer (for example in a role like this), or transitioning to ML engineering to work on safety (though maybe that’s what you were thinking about with ‘impactful direct work’. You could perhaps reach out to effective altruists who had done AI safety engineering such as Richard Ngo to get a better sense of how to compare the value of that with research and policy. I guess I tentatively agree that if you’re a great fit for research that would likely be more impactful, but it seems worth looking into.
I welcome the reinforcement that a) it is indeed a tough call and b) I’m sane and they’re good options! Thank you for the encouragement, and the advice.
I remain fuzzy on what shape ‘impactful direct work’ could take, and I’m not sure to what degree keeping my mind ‘open’ in that sense is rational (the better to capture emergent opportunities) vs merely comforting (specifying a path is scary and procastinating is emotionally safer)! I acknowledge that my tentative principal goal besides donations, if I continue engineering growth, is indeed working on safety. The MIRI job link is interesting. I’d be pleased and proud to work in that sort of role (though I’m likely to remain in the UK at least for the near future).
Thank you for the suggestion to talk to Richard or others. I’ve gathered a few accounts from friends I know well who have gone into further degrees in other disciplines, and I expect it would be useful to complement that with evidence from others to help better predict personal fit. I wouldn’t know whom to talk to about impact on a long-term engineering track.
A little followup:
I took part in the inaugural SERI MATS programme in 2021-2022 (where incidentally I interacted with Richard), and started an AI Safety PhD at Oxford in 22.
I’m now working for the AI Safety Institute (UK Gov) since Jan 2024 as a hybrid technical expert, utilising my engineering and DS background, alongside AI/ML research and threat modelling. Likely to continue such work, there or elsewhere. Unsure if I’ll finish my PhD in the end, as a result, but I don’t regret it: I produced a little research, met some great collaborators, and had fun while learning as a consequence!
Between the original thread and my leaving for PhD, I’d say I grew my engineering, DS, and project management skills a little, though diminishing, while also doing a lot of AIS prep. My total income also went up while I remained FT employed. This was due for a slowdown as a consequence of stock movements and vesting, but regardless I definitely forwent a lot of money thanks to becoming a student again (and then a researcher rather than a high-paid engineer)! As far as I can tell this is the main price I paid, in terms of both personal situation and impact, and perhaps I should have made the move sooner (though having money in the bank is very freeing and enables indirect impact).
Hey Oliver, this is a tough call. I would hold out for the promotion and vesting if it’s only a couple years. Personally, I did a MS in CS/ML part time while working. It was a little brutal at times, took almost 4 years, and limited my choice of schools. But it was very good for my career, since I didn’t have to sacrifice any job progression time. It’s not the right choice for everyone (I don’t have kids, so more flexibility), but it’s one option.
I will say that while a year or two to wait for a promotion/vesting might seem like a lot, it will fly by, and you will be in a very strong position from there. If you are donating and enjoying your job in the meantime, all the better!
If possible, I wonder if you could negotiate a 1.5-2 year break from your company to go for the MS, pause the vesting (rather than lose it), and come back in at the senior position. This would be the best of both worlds if you could swing it, I’ve definitely heard stories like that. If you get into a top school, you could have good leverage because it looks good for your company. I’ve even known people to swing the deal so that the company pays the tuition with a 2 year commitment after. If after a year you love research, back out of the deal and continue for the PhD.
Sounds like you are in a good position right now for all the reasons you state, so be careful before throwing that away, you could always get unlucky and find yourself simply starting over at a new company after getting the degree.
Good luck!
Oh, and regarding the degree itself… I liked my MS CS program for the most part. The cost of tuition is becoming a tougher sell with all the cheap options to learn online. Hour-for-hour, you could probably get a better education by reading articles and practicing skills, because you can learn exactly what you want, and classes are not quite as cutting edge as podcasts/articles/meetups/etc.. For example my neural nets class taught theory but no practical skills like tensorflow/keras/pytorch, which really annoyed me. But the structure does help you stay focused and organized for multiple years. Mine was online, so I can’t speak to the value of networking. The value of the degree on the resume is definitely real, but only a little better than 2 years of experience, and probably not much better than a promotion. I can’t speak directly to a PhD, but I was on the fence, skipped it, and definitely do not regret my decision.
I really appreciate these data points! Actually it’s interesting you mention the networking aspect—one of the factors that would push me towards more higher education is the (real or imagined?) networking opportunities. Though I get on very well with most people I work or study with, I’m not an instinctive ‘networker’ and I think for me, improving that could be a factor with relatively high marginal return.
As for learning practical skills… I’d hope to get some from a higher degree but if that were all I wanted I might indeed stick to Coursera and the like! It’s the research aspect I’d really like to explore my fit for.
Trying to negotiate a break with the company had crossed my mind but sounds hard. Thanks for the nudge and anecdata about that possibility. It would be a big win if possible!
I’m really glad to hear that your path has been working out without regret. I hope that continues. :)