- More negative press for EA (which I haven’t seen yet) - Reducing morale of EA people in general, causing lower productivity or even people leaving the movement.
My sense is that these two can easily go the other way.
If you try to keep all your worries about bad actors a secret you basically count on their bad actions never becoming public. But if they do become public at a later date (which seems fairly likely because bad actors usually don’t become more wise and sane with age, and, if they aren’t opposed, they get more resources and thus more opportunities to create harm and scandals), then the resulting PR fallout is even bigger. I mean, in the case of SBF, it would have been good for the EA brand if there were more public complaints about SBF early on and then EAs could refer to them and say “see, we didn’t fully trust him, we weren’t blindly promoting him”.
Keeping silent about bad actors can easily decrease morale because many people who interacted with bad actors will have become distrustful of them and worry about the average character/integrity of EAs. Then they see these bad actors giving talks at EAGs, going on podcast interviews, and so on. That can easily give rise to thoughts/emotions like “man, EA is just not my tribe anymore, they just give a podium to whomever is somewhat productive, doesn’t matter if they’re good people or not.”
Good point, I agree that second order effects like this make the situation even more complex and can even make a seemingly negative effect net positive in the long run.
Then they see these bad actors giving talks at EAGs, going on podcast interviews, and so on.
????????? This seems like evidence of failure of investigations (or followup effort after investigations), not failure of public exposes of such investigations.
Sorry, yeah, I didn’t make my reasoning fully transparent.
One worry is that most private investigations won’t create common knowledge/won’t be shared widely enough that they cause the targets of these investigations to be sufficiently prevented from participating in a community even if this is appropriate. It’s just difficult and has many drawbacks to share a private investigations with every possible EA organization, EAGx organizer, podcast host, community builder, etc.
My understanding is that this has actually happened to some extent in the case of NonLinear and in other somewhat similar cases (though I may be wrong!).
But you’re right, if private investigations are sufficiently compelling and sufficiently widely shared they will have almost the same effects. Though at some point, you may also wonder how different very widely shared private investigations are from public investigations. In some sense, the latter may be more fair because the person can read the accusations and defend themselves. (Also, frequent widely shared private investigations might contribute even more to a climate of fear, paranoia and witch hunts than public investigations.)
ETA: Just to be clear, I also agree that public investigations should be more of a “last resort” measure and not be taken lightly. I guess we disagree about where to draw this line.
My sense is that these two can easily go the other way.
If you try to keep all your worries about bad actors a secret you basically count on their bad actions never becoming public. But if they do become public at a later date (which seems fairly likely because bad actors usually don’t become more wise and sane with age, and, if they aren’t opposed, they get more resources and thus more opportunities to create harm and scandals), then the resulting PR fallout is even bigger. I mean, in the case of SBF, it would have been good for the EA brand if there were more public complaints about SBF early on and then EAs could refer to them and say “see, we didn’t fully trust him, we weren’t blindly promoting him”.
Keeping silent about bad actors can easily decrease morale because many people who interacted with bad actors will have become distrustful of them and worry about the average character/integrity of EAs. Then they see these bad actors giving talks at EAGs, going on podcast interviews, and so on. That can easily give rise to thoughts/emotions like “man, EA is just not my tribe anymore, they just give a podium to whomever is somewhat productive, doesn’t matter if they’re good people or not.”
Good point, I agree that second order effects like this make the situation even more complex and can even make a seemingly negative effect net positive in the long run.
????????? This seems like evidence of failure of investigations (or followup effort after investigations), not failure of public exposes of such investigations.
Sorry, yeah, I didn’t make my reasoning fully transparent.
One worry is that most private investigations won’t create common knowledge/won’t be shared widely enough that they cause the targets of these investigations to be sufficiently prevented from participating in a community even if this is appropriate. It’s just difficult and has many drawbacks to share a private investigations with every possible EA organization, EAGx organizer, podcast host, community builder, etc.
My understanding is that this has actually happened to some extent in the case of NonLinear and in other somewhat similar cases (though I may be wrong!).
But you’re right, if private investigations are sufficiently compelling and sufficiently widely shared they will have almost the same effects. Though at some point, you may also wonder how different very widely shared private investigations are from public investigations. In some sense, the latter may be more fair because the person can read the accusations and defend themselves. (Also, frequent widely shared private investigations might contribute even more to a climate of fear, paranoia and witch hunts than public investigations.)
ETA: Just to be clear, I also agree that public investigations should be more of a “last resort” measure and not be taken lightly. I guess we disagree about where to draw this line.
Yeah I think I agree with this.