At least in my own normative thought, I don’t just wonder about what meets my standards. [...] I think the most important disagreement of all is over which standards are really warranted.
Really warranted by what? I think I’m an illusionist about this in particular as I don’t even know what we could be reasonably disagreeing over.
For a disagreement about facts (is this blue?), we can argue about actual blueness (measurable) or we can argue about epistemics (which strategies most reliably predict the world?) and meta-epistemics (which strategies most reliably figure out strategies that reliably predict the world?), etc.
For disagreements about morals (is this good?), we can argue about goodness but what is goodness? Is it platonic? Is it grounded in God? I’m not even sure what there is to dispute. I’d argue the best we can do is argue to our shared values (perhaps even universal human values, perhaps idealized by arguing about consistency etc.) and then see what best satisfies those.
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On your view, there may not be any normative disagreement, once we all agree about the logical and empirical facts.
Right—and this matches our experience! When moral disagreements persist after full empirical and logical agreement, we’re left with clashing bedrock intuitions. You want to insist there’s still a fact about who’s ultimately correct, but can’t explain what would make it true.
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It’s interesting to consider the meta question of whether one of us is really right about our present metaethical dispute, or whether all you can say is that your position follows from your epistemic standards and mine follows from mine, and there is no further objective question about which we even disagree.
I think we’re successfully engaging in a dispute here and that does kind of prove my position. I’m trying to argue that you’re appealing to something that just doesn’t exist and that this is inconsistent with your epistemic values. Whether one can ground a judgement about what is “really warranted” is a factual question.
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I want to add that your recent post on meta-metaethical realism also reinforces my point here. You worry that anti-realism about morality commits us to anti-realism about philosophy generally. But there’s a crucial disanalogy: philosophical discourse (including this debate) works precisely because we share epistemic standards—logical consistency, explanatory power, and various other virtues. When we debate meta-ethics or meta-epistemology, we’re not searching for stance-independent truths but rather working out what follows from our shared epistemic commitments.
The “companions in guilt” argument fails because epistemic norms are self-vindicating in a way moral norms aren’t. To even engage in rational discourse about what’s true (including about anti-realism), we must employ epistemic standards. But we can coherently describe worlds with radically different moral standards. There’s no pragmatic incoherence in moral anti-realism the way there would be in global philosophical anti-realism.
Really warranted by what? I think I’m an illusionist about this in particular as I don’t even know what we could be reasonably disagreeing over.
For a disagreement about facts (is this blue?), we can argue about actual blueness (measurable) or we can argue about epistemics (which strategies most reliably predict the world?) and meta-epistemics (which strategies most reliably figure out strategies that reliably predict the world?), etc.
For disagreements about morals (is this good?), we can argue about goodness but what is goodness? Is it platonic? Is it grounded in God? I’m not even sure what there is to dispute. I’d argue the best we can do is argue to our shared values (perhaps even universal human values, perhaps idealized by arguing about consistency etc.) and then see what best satisfies those.
~
Right—and this matches our experience! When moral disagreements persist after full empirical and logical agreement, we’re left with clashing bedrock intuitions. You want to insist there’s still a fact about who’s ultimately correct, but can’t explain what would make it true.
~
I think we’re successfully engaging in a dispute here and that does kind of prove my position. I’m trying to argue that you’re appealing to something that just doesn’t exist and that this is inconsistent with your epistemic values. Whether one can ground a judgement about what is “really warranted” is a factual question.
~
I want to add that your recent post on meta-metaethical realism also reinforces my point here. You worry that anti-realism about morality commits us to anti-realism about philosophy generally. But there’s a crucial disanalogy: philosophical discourse (including this debate) works precisely because we share epistemic standards—logical consistency, explanatory power, and various other virtues. When we debate meta-ethics or meta-epistemology, we’re not searching for stance-independent truths but rather working out what follows from our shared epistemic commitments.
The “companions in guilt” argument fails because epistemic norms are self-vindicating in a way moral norms aren’t. To even engage in rational discourse about what’s true (including about anti-realism), we must employ epistemic standards. But we can coherently describe worlds with radically different moral standards. There’s no pragmatic incoherence in moral anti-realism the way there would be in global philosophical anti-realism.