Thanks for the response Vasco and apologies for the tardy reply :)
The necessity of making funding decisions means interventions in animal welfare and global health and development are compared at least implicitly. I think it is better to make them explicit for reasoning transparency, and having discussions which could eventually lead to better decisions. Saying there is too much uncertainty, and there is nothing we can do will not move things forward.
I agree on the first part. But it appears OP is perfectly transparent about their reasoning. They acknowledge that the level of uncertainty permits differences of opinion, that they believe a portfolio allocation approach incorporating different views on utilities and moral priorities and risk tolerance is better than adopting a single set of weights and fanatically optimising for them, and that the implicit moral weights are therefore a residual resulting from preference heterogenity of people whose decision making OP/Dustin/Cari value rather than an unjustifiable knowledge claim about the absolute intensity of animals’ experiences which others must prove wrong if they are to consider allocating budget in any other way.
It is, of course, perfectly reasonable to disagree with any/all individuals in OP’s preferences and the net result of that funding allocation, and there are many individual funding decisions OP have made which can be improved upon (including for relatively non-contentious reasons like “they didn’t achieve their aims”). But I don’t tend to think that polemical arguments with suspicious convergence like “donating to most things in cause area X is many times more effective than everything in cause area Y” are particularly helpful in moving things forward, particularly when they’re based not on spotting a glaring error or possible conflict of interest but upon a preference for the moral weights proposed by another organization OP are certainly aware of.
What do you think about humane slaughter interventions, such as the electrical stunning interventions promoted by the Centre for Aquaculture Progress? “Most sea bream and sea bass today are killed by being immersed in an ice slurry, a process which is not considered acceptable by the World Organisation for Animal Health”. “Electrical stunning reliably renders fish unconscious in less than one second, reducing their suffering”. Rough analogy, but a human dying in an electric chair suffers less than one dying in a freezer?
Honestly, I have no idea whether it would be more uncomfortable to die on an electric chair or in a freezer, and I’m actually pretty familiar with the experience of human discomfort and descriptions of electrical shocks and hypothermia written from human perspectives. I’m not volunteering to test it experimentally either! Needless to say I have even less knowledge about the experience of a cold blooded, water dwelling creature with completely different physiology and nervous system and plausibly no conscious experience at all
A consequence of this is that I don’t think transferring all the money currently spent on eradicating malaria to funding campaigns of indeterminate efficacy to promote an alternative slaughter method which has an indeterminate impact on the final moments of fish can be stated with a high degree of certainty to be a net positive use of resources.
Relatedly, I estimated the Shrimp Welfare Project’s Humane Slaughter Initiative is 43.5 k times as cost-effective as GiveWell’s top charities. I would be curious about which changes to the parameters you would make to render the ration lower than 1.
This is a good question, and my honest answer is probably all of them, and the fundamental premise. I’ve discussed how lobbying organizations’ funding isn’t well measured at the margin and doesn’t scale well in my previous post, I don’t think the evidence base for ice slurry being a particularly painful slaughter method is particularly robust,[1] I don’t think RP’s numbers or your upward revisions of the pain scales they use are particularly authoritative, and above all I’m not sure it’s appropriate to use DALYs to trade human lives for thousand-point-scale estimates of the fleeting suffering of organisms where there isn’t even a scientific consensus they have any conscious experience at all. Titotal’s post does a much better job than I could of explaining how easily it is to end up with orders of magnitude difference in outcomes even if one accepts the basic premises, and there’s no particular reason to believe that premises like “researchers have made some observations about aversion to what is assumed to be pain stimuli amidst an absence of evidence of other traits associated with consciousness, and attached a number to it” are robust.
For related reasons, I don’t think fanaticism is the best approach to budget allocation.
One does not need to worry about the meat eater problem to think the best animal welfare interventions are way more cost-effective than the best in global health and development. Neglecting that problem, I estimated corporate campaigns for chicken welfare are 1.51 k times as cost-effective as GiveWell’s top charities, and Shrimp Welfare Project’s Humane Slaughter Initiative is 43.5 k times as cost-effective as GiveWell’s top charities.
There’s a reason why I used the word universal. Yes, it is entirely reasonable to believe that a couple of causes from one area are clearly and obviously better than the best known in another area, though shrimp welfare certainly isn’t the one I’d pick. But that’s not the framing of the debate (which is the debate week’s, not yours specifically) is on Cause Area X vs Cause Area Y, not “is Charity Z the most effective charity overall”.
And if I did believe your numbers were a fairly accurate representation of reality and that fanaticism was better for budget allocation than a portfolio strategy, I’d be concerned that chicken charities were using money specifically allocated to AW despite being ~28x worse than shrimp,[2] There’s more money in the GHW buckets, but the chicken ⇒ shrimp reallocation decision is more easily made.
though I’ll happily concede it’s a longer process than electrical stunning
Isn’t this pretty key? If “Electrical stunning reliably renders fish unconscious in less than one second” as Vasco says, I don’t see how you can get much better than that in terms of humane slaughter.
Or are you saying that electrical stunning is plausibly so bad even in that split second so as to make it potentially worse than a much slower death from freezing?
It’s well within the bounds of possibility the electric shock is excruciating and the cold numbing, yes. Or indeed that they’re both neutral, compared with slaughter methods that produce clear physiological stress indicators like asyphxiation in carbon-dioxide rich water. or that they’re different for different types of water dwelling species depending on their natural hardiness to icy water, which also seems to be a popular theory. Rightly or wrongly, ice cold slurry is sometimes recommended as the humane option, although obviously the fish farming industry is more concerned with its ability to preserve the fish marginally better than kiliing prior to insertion into the slurry...
I was trying to question you on the duration aspect specifically. If electric shock lasts a split second is it really credible that it could be worse than a slow death through some other method?
If the slow death involves no pain, of course it’s credible. (The electric shock is, incidentally, generally insufficient to kill. They generally solve the problem of the fish reviving with immersion in ice slurry....). It’s also credible that neither are remotely as painful as a two week malaria infection or a few years of malaria infection which is (much of) what sits on the other side of the trade here.
This is less clear for shrimp, though. I don’t know if they find the cold painful at all, and it might sedate them or even render them unconscious. But I imagine that takes time, and they’re being crushed by each other and ice with ice slurry.
Thanks for the response Vasco and apologies for the tardy reply :)
I agree on the first part. But it appears OP is perfectly transparent about their reasoning. They acknowledge that the level of uncertainty permits differences of opinion, that they believe a portfolio allocation approach incorporating different views on utilities and moral priorities and risk tolerance is better than adopting a single set of weights and fanatically optimising for them, and that the implicit moral weights are therefore a residual resulting from preference heterogenity of people whose decision making OP/Dustin/Cari value rather than an unjustifiable knowledge claim about the absolute intensity of animals’ experiences which others must prove wrong if they are to consider allocating budget in any other way.
It is, of course, perfectly reasonable to disagree with any/all individuals in OP’s preferences and the net result of that funding allocation, and there are many individual funding decisions OP have made which can be improved upon (including for relatively non-contentious reasons like “they didn’t achieve their aims”). But I don’t tend to think that polemical arguments with suspicious convergence like “donating to most things in cause area X is many times more effective than everything in cause area Y” are particularly helpful in moving things forward, particularly when they’re based not on spotting a glaring error or possible conflict of interest but upon a preference for the moral weights proposed by another organization OP are certainly aware of.
Honestly, I have no idea whether it would be more uncomfortable to die on an electric chair or in a freezer, and I’m actually pretty familiar with the experience of human discomfort and descriptions of electrical shocks and hypothermia written from human perspectives. I’m not volunteering to test it experimentally either! Needless to say I have even less knowledge about the experience of a cold blooded, water dwelling creature with completely different physiology and nervous system and plausibly no conscious experience at all
A consequence of this is that I don’t think transferring all the money currently spent on eradicating malaria to funding campaigns of indeterminate efficacy to promote an alternative slaughter method which has an indeterminate impact on the final moments of fish can be stated with a high degree of certainty to be a net positive use of resources.
This is a good question, and my honest answer is probably all of them, and the fundamental premise. I’ve discussed how lobbying organizations’ funding isn’t well measured at the margin and doesn’t scale well in my previous post, I don’t think the evidence base for ice slurry being a particularly painful slaughter method is particularly robust,[1] I don’t think RP’s numbers or your upward revisions of the pain scales they use are particularly authoritative, and above all I’m not sure it’s appropriate to use DALYs to trade human lives for thousand-point-scale estimates of the fleeting suffering of organisms where there isn’t even a scientific consensus they have any conscious experience at all. Titotal’s post does a much better job than I could of explaining how easily it is to end up with orders of magnitude difference in outcomes even if one accepts the basic premises, and there’s no particular reason to believe that premises like “researchers have made some observations about aversion to what is assumed to be pain stimuli amidst an absence of evidence of other traits associated with consciousness, and attached a number to it” are robust.
For related reasons, I don’t think fanaticism is the best approach to budget allocation.
There’s a reason why I used the word universal. Yes, it is entirely reasonable to believe that a couple of causes from one area are clearly and obviously better than the best known in another area, though shrimp welfare certainly isn’t the one I’d pick. But that’s not the framing of the debate (which is the debate week’s, not yours specifically) is on Cause Area X vs Cause Area Y, not “is Charity Z the most effective charity overall”.
And if I did believe your numbers were a fairly accurate representation of reality and that fanaticism was better for budget allocation than a portfolio strategy, I’d be concerned that chicken charities were using money specifically allocated to AW despite being ~28x worse than shrimp,[2] There’s more money in the GHW buckets, but the chicken ⇒ shrimp reallocation decision is more easily made.
though I’ll happily concede it’s a longer process than electrical stunning
though personally I’d attach higher confidence to the chicken campaigns being significantly net positive...
Thanks for elaborating, David. Strongly upvoted.
Isn’t this pretty key? If “Electrical stunning reliably renders fish unconscious in less than one second” as Vasco says, I don’t see how you can get much better than that in terms of humane slaughter.
Or are you saying that electrical stunning is plausibly so bad even in that split second so as to make it potentially worse than a much slower death from freezing?
It’s well within the bounds of possibility the electric shock is excruciating and the cold numbing, yes. Or indeed that they’re both neutral, compared with slaughter methods that produce clear physiological stress indicators like asyphxiation in carbon-dioxide rich water. or that they’re different for different types of water dwelling species depending on their natural hardiness to icy water, which also seems to be a popular theory. Rightly or wrongly, ice cold slurry is sometimes recommended as the humane option, although obviously the fish farming industry is more concerned with its ability to preserve the fish marginally better than kiliing prior to insertion into the slurry...
I was trying to question you on the duration aspect specifically. If electric shock lasts a split second is it really credible that it could be worse than a slow death through some other method?
If the slow death involves no pain, of course it’s credible. (The electric shock is, incidentally, generally insufficient to kill. They generally solve the problem of the fish reviving with immersion in ice slurry....). It’s also credible that neither are remotely as painful as a two week malaria infection or a few years of malaria infection which is (much of) what sits on the other side of the trade here.
My understanding from conversation with SWP is that for shrimp, the electric stunning also just kills the shrimp, and it’s all over very quickly.
It might be different for fish.
Conditional on fish actually being able to feel pain, it seems a bit far-fetched to me that a slow death in ice wouldn’t be painful.
This is less clear for shrimp, though. I don’t know if they find the cold painful at all, and it might sedate them or even render them unconscious. But I imagine that takes time, and they’re being crushed by each other and ice with ice slurry.