Thanks for the comment, Lorenzo. A few random counterpoints to what you said, some positive and some critical.
1. On point one I don’t share at all your confidence, quite the opposite. I would like that—i.e. that by asking for clarifications I’ll look smarter - but my impression is that on a deep and untrained-by-system-2 level, you will be perceived as the dumb foreigner who doesn’t understand for a long time, let’s say for the first few years in which you interact daily with native English speakers. To find out who’s right should we try to test our points in an anonymous survey, by asking native speakers about their actual thoughts in situations like that?
Three things mainly helped me in this sense
A. My baseline self-confidence, especially in social settings, is pretty high, even if I have strong highs and lows. So if I make a mistake and I think I am perceived as dumb for that I will not care too much. This will probably cure my unusual shyness with time. But this is clearly something which is not generalizable and is highly personal
B. Curiously, a meme that I saw actually made a great point. Is the “We Are Not The Same” meme that says “You speak English because it’s the only language you know. I speak English because it’s the only language you know. We are not the same”. It’s ironic and not a rationalist treatise about the pragmatics of language, but the point is: why should I feel embarrassed by my linguistic mistakes when I am the one making extremely high cognitive work to learn another language as an adult?
C. On the same note, a more serious argument. By trying to learn another language I am doing at the same time something nice and compassionate and extremely clever: I am trying to be a citizen of the world without being an arrogant prick, escaping the localistic mindset in which I grow up and I am squeezing my brain to his max capacities every day. I am the one who is doing the native speakers a favour by trying to learn their language, not the opposite. By thinking about that the “oh gosh I am a stupid dumbass” sensation doesn’t disappear, but it’s mitigated a lot.
2. I don’t know what an SNR is. And that’s what I was talking about: it’s great to have internal jargon and all, but assuming too much about how much the other person knows doesn’t facilitate the conversations and poses a barrier at the entrance that is too high. Having said that, this definitely helps in formal occasions like EAGs, but I don’t think it’s particularly valuable in day-to-day interactions, like when you hang out with EAs as a normal human being (e.g. grabbing a coffee/a bear? Going to a party?). But for formal settings in which you can schedule meetings, one-on-ones and using Calendly that’s great advice that I subscribe 100%.
3. Totally agree. It’s cognitively demanding and a bit frustrating, especially when it seems like you are the only one putting that much effort into being more aware, but it’s worthwhile.
4. I am almost alcohol-free and I can’t relate that much, since my mental state hardly changes when I drink socially (e.g. a couple of cocktails? Half a bottle of wine?). I might feel a liiiitle bit tipsy, but overall the differences are barely noticeable from the inside. On a general note, I think it’s great advice to drink as little as possible in general: all the common sense views about alcohol (e.g. it makes you less shy) are bullshits and not based on actual data. But, I mean, my guess is that changing the brits attitude toward drinking will be a particularly difficult endeavour.
5. Uhm, I understand it’s something that may be perceived neutrally by some experienced rationalists EAs, but if we use the average person as a probabilistic base rate to forecast the potential reaction of anyone in a real setting in front of a similar question I am highly confident the reaction would be negative and you’ll be perceived as a weirdo, lowering even more your social value in the setting (“foreigner which doesn’t understand my language and that waste my time” + “weirdo who wants to record what I say”). So before asking something similar, I would need to be super confident about how much I am calibrated to the other person’s mindset. I think too much time in EA we just avoid taking into consideration how normal life is outside our bubble.
On your point regarding the trivial inconveniences, I push back strongly. Honestly, I will probably not feel comfortable in a social context which doesn’t have the willingness to adjust its informal rules to become more welcoming of diversity, starting from the use of language. So if by kindly asking EA native speakers to do some small things which would make my life easier I annoy them and if this is not cost-effective for them to at least try to listen to me I would rather keep up hanging out with EAs. I can do my part, do outreach, partecipate a bit, but I will never feel that I am part of the movement. Fortunately my impression is that you might be wrong here and on average EAs will not consider being more inclusive a cost.
I mostly agree with last points, advices and considerations.
On 1. (asking for someone to repeat makes you look dumber/smarter) I would be interested to bet on this, but I worry that replies to a poll would be biased in my favour (as you said, system 2 and system 1 could disagree). It might also depend a lot on details and context, but if you are also interested we can try to operationalize a bet!
On 2. (SNR) it was meant to be a tongue in cheek self-deprecating joke about using too much jargon, sorry it didn’t come across that way! (I was thinking of Signal-to-Noise-Ratio , basically a way to repeat what I previously wrote with random jargon). I agree this point doesn’t apply much to parties and crowded social settings.
On 5. (Recording conversations) agree, depends a lot on context.
On the trivial inconveniences, I am conflicted. I guess I defer to others with more experience in the community.
In general I would be curious to hear tips for non-native speakers from native speakers. Sometimes I feel that the language situation is as uncomfortable for one group as it is for the other, and I wonder what we could do to make it better.
In terms of trivial inconveniences / perception and gratitude for the work people are doing to speak English, one other small note: there may be more native English speakers than you realize who have spent periods speaking another language?
In EA contexts, it’s pretty much always the case that the shared level of English between myself and my conversation partner is higher, since my Spanish is around a B2 level and my French around B1… but I have spent ~6 months each in countries that speak those languages and know it’s hard!
I’ve gotten feedback before when I’m speaking too quickly, and I’ve always been grateful for it. Do you have any other suggestions for how native English speakers can indicate willingness to receive feedback ― I sometimes worry about making people self-conscious by drawing attention to their (good but non-native) level of English, but maybe adding something in my EAG bio like “I know it can be exhausting to speak English all day if you’re not a native speaker, please tell me to slow down if I’m speaking too fast!” would be helpful?
Your points B and C are so right, btw! As a native English speaker, I can’t speak any second language nearly as well as most non-native English speaking EAs. I’m super impressed with all of you, and far from thinking you’re stupid or slow, interacting with you makes me feel stupid because I couldn’t discuss highly technical things in French, Spanish, German, Italian, Mandarin...
Thanks for the comment, Lorenzo. A few random counterpoints to what you said, some positive and some critical.
1. On point one I don’t share at all your confidence, quite the opposite. I would like that—i.e. that by asking for clarifications I’ll look smarter - but my impression is that on a deep and untrained-by-system-2 level, you will be perceived as the dumb foreigner who doesn’t understand for a long time, let’s say for the first few years in which you interact daily with native English speakers. To find out who’s right should we try to test our points in an anonymous survey, by asking native speakers about their actual thoughts in situations like that?
Three things mainly helped me in this sense
A. My baseline self-confidence, especially in social settings, is pretty high, even if I have strong highs and lows. So if I make a mistake and I think I am perceived as dumb for that I will not care too much. This will probably cure my unusual shyness with time. But this is clearly something which is not generalizable and is highly personal
B. Curiously, a meme that I saw actually made a great point. Is the “We Are Not The Same” meme that says “You speak English because it’s the only language you know. I speak English because it’s the only language you know. We are not the same”. It’s ironic and not a rationalist treatise about the pragmatics of language, but the point is: why should I feel embarrassed by my linguistic mistakes when I am the one making extremely high cognitive work to learn another language as an adult?
C. On the same note, a more serious argument. By trying to learn another language I am doing at the same time something nice and compassionate and extremely clever: I am trying to be a citizen of the world without being an arrogant prick, escaping the localistic mindset in which I grow up and I am squeezing my brain to his max capacities every day. I am the one who is doing the native speakers a favour by trying to learn their language, not the opposite. By thinking about that the “oh gosh I am a stupid dumbass” sensation doesn’t disappear, but it’s mitigated a lot.
2. I don’t know what an SNR is. And that’s what I was talking about: it’s great to have internal jargon and all, but assuming too much about how much the other person knows doesn’t facilitate the conversations and poses a barrier at the entrance that is too high. Having said that, this definitely helps in formal occasions like EAGs, but I don’t think it’s particularly valuable in day-to-day interactions, like when you hang out with EAs as a normal human being (e.g. grabbing a coffee/a bear? Going to a party?). But for formal settings in which you can schedule meetings, one-on-ones and using Calendly that’s great advice that I subscribe 100%.
3. Totally agree. It’s cognitively demanding and a bit frustrating, especially when it seems like you are the only one putting that much effort into being more aware, but it’s worthwhile.
4. I am almost alcohol-free and I can’t relate that much, since my mental state hardly changes when I drink socially (e.g. a couple of cocktails? Half a bottle of wine?). I might feel a liiiitle bit tipsy, but overall the differences are barely noticeable from the inside. On a general note, I think it’s great advice to drink as little as possible in general: all the common sense views about alcohol (e.g. it makes you less shy) are bullshits and not based on actual data. But, I mean, my guess is that changing the brits attitude toward drinking will be a particularly difficult endeavour.
5. Uhm, I understand it’s something that may be perceived neutrally by some experienced rationalists EAs, but if we use the average person as a probabilistic base rate to forecast the potential reaction of anyone in a real setting in front of a similar question I am highly confident the reaction would be negative and you’ll be perceived as a weirdo, lowering even more your social value in the setting (“foreigner which doesn’t understand my language and that waste my time” + “weirdo who wants to record what I say”). So before asking something similar, I would need to be super confident about how much I am calibrated to the other person’s mindset. I think too much time in EA we just avoid taking into consideration how normal life is outside our bubble.
On your point regarding the trivial inconveniences, I push back strongly. Honestly, I will probably not feel comfortable in a social context which doesn’t have the willingness to adjust its informal rules to become more welcoming of diversity, starting from the use of language. So if by kindly asking EA native speakers to do some small things which would make my life easier I annoy them and if this is not cost-effective for them to at least try to listen to me I would rather keep up hanging out with EAs. I can do my part, do outreach, partecipate a bit, but I will never feel that I am part of the movement. Fortunately my impression is that you might be wrong here and on average EAs will not consider being more inclusive a cost.
I mostly agree with last points, advices and considerations.
Thanks for the reply!
On 1. (asking for someone to repeat makes you look dumber/smarter) I would be interested to bet on this, but I worry that replies to a poll would be biased in my favour (as you said, system 2 and system 1 could disagree). It might also depend a lot on details and context, but if you are also interested we can try to operationalize a bet!
On 2. (SNR) it was meant to be a tongue in cheek self-deprecating joke about using too much jargon, sorry it didn’t come across that way! (I was thinking of Signal-to-Noise-Ratio , basically a way to repeat what I previously wrote with random jargon). I agree this point doesn’t apply much to parties and crowded social settings.
On 5. (Recording conversations) agree, depends a lot on context.
On the trivial inconveniences, I am conflicted. I guess I defer to others with more experience in the community.
In general I would be curious to hear tips for non-native speakers from native speakers. Sometimes I feel that the language situation is as uncomfortable for one group as it is for the other, and I wonder what we could do to make it better.
In terms of trivial inconveniences / perception and gratitude for the work people are doing to speak English, one other small note: there may be more native English speakers than you realize who have spent periods speaking another language?
In EA contexts, it’s pretty much always the case that the shared level of English between myself and my conversation partner is higher, since my Spanish is around a B2 level and my French around B1… but I have spent ~6 months each in countries that speak those languages and know it’s hard!
I’ve gotten feedback before when I’m speaking too quickly, and I’ve always been grateful for it. Do you have any other suggestions for how native English speakers can indicate willingness to receive feedback ― I sometimes worry about making people self-conscious by drawing attention to their (good but non-native) level of English, but maybe adding something in my EAG bio like “I know it can be exhausting to speak English all day if you’re not a native speaker, please tell me to slow down if I’m speaking too fast!” would be helpful?
Your points B and C are so right, btw! As a native English speaker, I can’t speak any second language nearly as well as most non-native English speaking EAs. I’m super impressed with all of you, and far from thinking you’re stupid or slow, interacting with you makes me feel stupid because I couldn’t discuss highly technical things in French, Spanish, German, Italian, Mandarin...