It sounds like one crux might be what counts as rigorous. I find the ‘be specific’ feedback to be a dodge. What is the counter party expected to do in a case like this? Point out people they think are either low status or not rigorous enough?
The damage, IMO, comes from EA sucking up a bunch of intelligent contrarian people and then having them put their effort behind status quo projects. I guess I have more sympathy for the systemic change criticisms than I used to.
I didn’t intend it as a dodge, though I understand why this information is difficult to provide. I just think that talking about problems in a case where one party is anonymous may be inherently difficult when examples can’t easily come into play.
I could try harder to come up with my own examples for the claims, but that seems like an odd way to handle discussion; it allows almost any criticism to be levied in hopes that the interlocutor will find some fitting anecdote. (Again, this isn’t the fault of the critics; it’s just a difficult feature of the situation.)
What are some EA projects you consider “status quo”, and how is following the status quo relevant to the worthiness of the projects? (Maybe your concern comes from the idea that projects which could be handled by non-contrarians are instead taking up time/energy that could be spent on something more creative/novel?)
Yes, that’s the concern. Asking me what projects I consider status quo is the exact same move as before. Being status quo is low status, so the conversation seems unlikely to evolve in a fruitful direction if we take that tack. I think institutions tend to slide towards attractors where the surrounding discourse norms are ‘reasonable and defensible’ from within a certain frame while undermining criticisms of the frame in ways that make people who point it out seem like they are being unreasonable. This is how larger, older foundations calcify and stop getting things done, as the natural tendency of an org is to insulate itself from the sharp changes that being in close feedback with the world necessitates.
It sounds like one crux might be what counts as rigorous. I find the ‘be specific’ feedback to be a dodge. What is the counter party expected to do in a case like this? Point out people they think are either low status or not rigorous enough?
The damage, IMO, comes from EA sucking up a bunch of intelligent contrarian people and then having them put their effort behind status quo projects. I guess I have more sympathy for the systemic change criticisms than I used to.
I didn’t intend it as a dodge, though I understand why this information is difficult to provide. I just think that talking about problems in a case where one party is anonymous may be inherently difficult when examples can’t easily come into play.
I could try harder to come up with my own examples for the claims, but that seems like an odd way to handle discussion; it allows almost any criticism to be levied in hopes that the interlocutor will find some fitting anecdote. (Again, this isn’t the fault of the critics; it’s just a difficult feature of the situation.)
What are some EA projects you consider “status quo”, and how is following the status quo relevant to the worthiness of the projects? (Maybe your concern comes from the idea that projects which could be handled by non-contrarians are instead taking up time/energy that could be spent on something more creative/novel?)
Yes, that’s the concern. Asking me what projects I consider status quo is the exact same move as before. Being status quo is low status, so the conversation seems unlikely to evolve in a fruitful direction if we take that tack. I think institutions tend to slide towards attractors where the surrounding discourse norms are ‘reasonable and defensible’ from within a certain frame while undermining criticisms of the frame in ways that make people who point it out seem like they are being unreasonable. This is how larger, older foundations calcify and stop getting things done, as the natural tendency of an org is to insulate itself from the sharp changes that being in close feedback with the world necessitates.