When I say “being more welcoming”, I mean not talking about NP-completeness, video games and popularity of CS professors, and instead talking about topics that everyone could be a part of. This seems like an important change that will directly lead to more retention of members in group B, which in turn seems important to me because it increases the diversity of EA.
Excellent point. I think I agree.
I think this is an instance of “Selecting on the Correlates” which I talked about in my talk at EA Global this year (starts at minute 36). Given the examples you cite, I agree that this exerts a selection pressure against diversity and that this is bad.
Yet, we want to draw some important lines here. Interest in talking about CS professors is not a selection pressure we want to exert. But, interest in talking about EA-relevant topics (even unusual or controversial ones) is a selection pressure we want to exert. It’s important to strike the right balance.
I think the issue is that “be welcoming” doesn’t seem to be very helpful. To me, it sometimes seems to mean something like “be nice” which I don’t think we’re failing at. Other times it seems to mean something like “be normal” where that can refer to moderating actions or opinions to sync more closely with mainstream thought which may or may not be a good thing.
I think the “don’t select on the correlates” idea makes the point in a more crisp way.
Haven’t had a chance to listen to your talk which might clear this up but while “don’t select on the correlates” does technically capture Rohin’s point, it doesn’t really resonate with me as making the point in a more crisp way, especially when contrasted with being welcoming.
I think one of the more insidious features of the type of phenomenon Rohin’s talking about is that, from the inside, it doesn’t FEEL like you’re making a selection at all. Indeed, apparently EA Berkeley’s intentional/explicit attempts at selection were basically random—selecting for almost nothing other than altruism. But, despite the lack of explicit selection, there was still a selection effect.
Asking people to do selection differently feels pretty far removed from the actual actions (if any) we might want someone to take if a lot of those people don’t by default feel like they’re doing selection at all.
Okay, I agree with the “don’t select on the correlates” phrasing.
That said, when I hear “be welcoming”, and even “be nice”, I don’t hear “Don’t talk about controversial EA-related topics”, I hear something more like “Don’t talk about CS professors”, which I certainly do think we’re failing at. (Heck, we couldn’t do this at EA Berkeley, which already feels more diverse to me than the general EA community.) I don’t know if everyone else means that when they say “be welcoming”.
(Some evidence that other people feel this way too—as of now, 4 people upvoted my previous comment.)
Excellent point. I think I agree.
I think this is an instance of “Selecting on the Correlates” which I talked about in my talk at EA Global this year (starts at minute 36). Given the examples you cite, I agree that this exerts a selection pressure against diversity and that this is bad.
Yet, we want to draw some important lines here. Interest in talking about CS professors is not a selection pressure we want to exert. But, interest in talking about EA-relevant topics (even unusual or controversial ones) is a selection pressure we want to exert. It’s important to strike the right balance.
I think the issue is that “be welcoming” doesn’t seem to be very helpful. To me, it sometimes seems to mean something like “be nice” which I don’t think we’re failing at. Other times it seems to mean something like “be normal” where that can refer to moderating actions or opinions to sync more closely with mainstream thought which may or may not be a good thing.
I think the “don’t select on the correlates” idea makes the point in a more crisp way.
Haven’t had a chance to listen to your talk which might clear this up but while “don’t select on the correlates” does technically capture Rohin’s point, it doesn’t really resonate with me as making the point in a more crisp way, especially when contrasted with being welcoming.
I think one of the more insidious features of the type of phenomenon Rohin’s talking about is that, from the inside, it doesn’t FEEL like you’re making a selection at all. Indeed, apparently EA Berkeley’s intentional/explicit attempts at selection were basically random—selecting for almost nothing other than altruism. But, despite the lack of explicit selection, there was still a selection effect.
Asking people to do selection differently feels pretty far removed from the actual actions (if any) we might want someone to take if a lot of those people don’t by default feel like they’re doing selection at all.
Okay, I agree with the “don’t select on the correlates” phrasing.
That said, when I hear “be welcoming”, and even “be nice”, I don’t hear “Don’t talk about controversial EA-related topics”, I hear something more like “Don’t talk about CS professors”, which I certainly do think we’re failing at. (Heck, we couldn’t do this at EA Berkeley, which already feels more diverse to me than the general EA community.) I don’t know if everyone else means that when they say “be welcoming”.
(Some evidence that other people feel this way too—as of now, 4 people upvoted my previous comment.)