This is fantastic! I know several EAs who “feel guilty about not being able to work on [AI safety or one of the other top cause areas] and compare themselves negatively to others who can,” and I think this could be a great resource for them.
Upon skimming the article and the Google Doc worksheet, I’m struck by how long/involved the process is. On one hand, this makes sense—this is about career planning, and people who are serious about changing their careers should be willing to put in the effort. On the other hand, I wonder if there could be shorter/easier/lower-effort versions of some of these tools.
In its current form, I think the length and user interface of the tool will appeal to some highly dedicated EAs with a lot of spare time on their hands. The tool might be tremendously helpful for them, but I think there are some motivated-but-not-quite-as-dedicated EAs who would benefit from shorter, more streamlined versions.
Some specific ideas include:
Changing some of the open-ended questions in the worksheet to multiple-choice questions (e.g., having a list of common priorities in the “Top 3-6 personal priorities” section).
Including more examples in the worksheet (there seem to be examples for some sections but not others; it might be helpful for nearly every question to have 1-2 examples).
Creating a “Sparknotes” version of this that is at least 50% shorter. Broadly, I think the guide can be divided into two parts: “Thinking about what matters to you” (sections 1, 2, and 4) and “Brainstorming/Evaluating concrete options” (sections 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8). I’d predict that EAs, especially those familiar with 80k hours, have done more of the “thinking about what matters” and less about the “concretely brainstorming/evaluating options.” With that in mind, I think it could be useful to develop (shorter/more streamlined) tools that target the “applied” sections (e.g., generating career options, determining your next steps, brainstorming how to get feedback and committing to it).
Developing some of these sections into standalone modules (similar to those on https://www.clearerthinking.org/, which do a great job of prompting serious reflection in relatively short amounts of time).
Including a vignette (either in the main tool or maybe as a separate file altogether) in which the reader gets to see how someone (real or hypothetical) goes through the whole process. (I think this is similar to the comment about case studies).
I think the main objection to several of these suggestions is that it might lead to shallower reflection than the longer/more effortful version. I think this is fair—some people who otherwise might have went with the more effortful version might instead go with the “lazier” version (and thus not benefit as much as they could have).
To mitigate this risk, I think you could recommend/nudge people toward the higher effort version, but still have complementary lower-effort versions for the (many) EAs who would be willing to do bite-sized versions of this but not the “18 page Google Doc with many open-ended questions & a complementary article” version. I also think there could be “foot-in-the-door” benefits—if someone likes the shorter version, they might be more inclined to think seriously about devoting several hours or weeks to more in-depth reflection.
Nonetheless, I think is a fantastic tool and I will be recommending it to several friends :) thank you for making it!
I agree that being too long and overwhelming is perhaps the main issue with it currently. Just checking you saw this paragraph, which might reassure you a bit:
Later, we hope to release a ‘just the key messages’ version that aims to quickly communicate the key concepts, without as much detail on why or how to apply them. We realise the current article is very long – it’s not aimed at new readers but rather at people who might want to spend days or more making a career plan. Longer-term, I could imagine it becoming a book with chapters for each stage above, which contain advice, real-life examples and exercises. (Added: we’ll also consider making a ‘tool’ version like we had in the 2017 career guide.)
Our top priority was ‘just to get everything written down’. After we’ve had more feedback to check the stages / advice / structure is at least not obviously wrong, the next priority will be making it more digestible, engaging and easier to use. This may take some time, though, since I think we need to give the key ideas cover sheet and problem profiles some more attention next.
Ah, I completely missed that paragraph. Thank you for pointing it out, and best of luck as you create more digestible versions!
After reading the paragraph, I have a few additional thoughts:
I like the idea of a “just the key messages” version that focuses on spreading the ideas rather than why/how to apply them. But I wonder if it’d be even more important to release a version that focuses on the application. My guess is that most EAs who follow 80k hours would benefit more from tools that help them apply these concepts than readings that explain the content to them. My confidence is low, though—I’m going off of some interactions with EA friends & some general theories of behavior change. What do you think about this assessment (that it’s more important to get EAs to apply these concepts in their lives than to explain the key concepts)?
A book seems like a great idea, though I also expect that it’d appeal to the “high-effort” crowd. The more I think about it, the more I think that I really hope some of these become https://www.clearerthinking.org modules :) (in addition to a tool version like the one in the 2017 guide).
I wonder if creating shorter versions might also help you get more feedback, as well as feedback from a different audience. Dismantling the guide into smaller chunks could be helpful at figuring out which parts are most helpful/clear (and perhaps which parts are most worth developing/refining further). Also, if the shorter tools attract a different crowd (i.e., those who aren’t as willing to spends days or more making a career plan), the feedback on the “low-effort” version might differ in meaningful ways from the feedback on the high-effort version.
I’m sure there are plenty of initiatives going on at 80k, and I have no idea where “creating new short modules/interactive tools for career planning” would rank on the list. Nonetheless, I think it’d be a valuable idea (potentially more valuable than long guides or “key points” materials that are more informational than applied), and I’d be excited to see/share them if you decide to pursue them.
I’m pretty tempted to break it up into standalone sections in the next version.
I agree the tools are worth doing at some point (and maybe breaking up into multiple tools). I guess you’re also aware of our ‘make a decision’ tool that’s in guided track?
I think I might be a bit more skeptical about tools though. They take a lot longer to make & edit, and some fraction of our core audience finds them a bit lame (though some love them). Personally, I’d prefer a google doc which I can easily customise, where I can see everything on one page, and easily share for feedback. And it seems like the youth might agree :p
“Later, we hope to release a ‘just the key messages’ version that aims to quickly communicate the key concepts, without as much detail on why or how to apply them. We realise the current article is very long – it’s not aimed at new readers but rather at people who might want to spend days or more making a career plan. ”
[Edit: Ben said the same thing at the same time, but much more kindly!]
This is fantastic! I know several EAs who “feel guilty about not being able to work on [AI safety or one of the other top cause areas] and compare themselves negatively to others who can,” and I think this could be a great resource for them.
Upon skimming the article and the Google Doc worksheet, I’m struck by how long/involved the process is. On one hand, this makes sense—this is about career planning, and people who are serious about changing their careers should be willing to put in the effort. On the other hand, I wonder if there could be shorter/easier/lower-effort versions of some of these tools.
In its current form, I think the length and user interface of the tool will appeal to some highly dedicated EAs with a lot of spare time on their hands. The tool might be tremendously helpful for them, but I think there are some motivated-but-not-quite-as-dedicated EAs who would benefit from shorter, more streamlined versions.
Some specific ideas include:
Changing some of the open-ended questions in the worksheet to multiple-choice questions (e.g., having a list of common priorities in the “Top 3-6 personal priorities” section).
Including more examples in the worksheet (there seem to be examples for some sections but not others; it might be helpful for nearly every question to have 1-2 examples).
Creating a “Sparknotes” version of this that is at least 50% shorter. Broadly, I think the guide can be divided into two parts: “Thinking about what matters to you” (sections 1, 2, and 4) and “Brainstorming/Evaluating concrete options” (sections 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8). I’d predict that EAs, especially those familiar with 80k hours, have done more of the “thinking about what matters” and less about the “concretely brainstorming/evaluating options.” With that in mind, I think it could be useful to develop (shorter/more streamlined) tools that target the “applied” sections (e.g., generating career options, determining your next steps, brainstorming how to get feedback and committing to it).
Developing some of these sections into standalone modules (similar to those on https://www.clearerthinking.org/, which do a great job of prompting serious reflection in relatively short amounts of time).
Including a vignette (either in the main tool or maybe as a separate file altogether) in which the reader gets to see how someone (real or hypothetical) goes through the whole process. (I think this is similar to the comment about case studies).
I think the main objection to several of these suggestions is that it might lead to shallower reflection than the longer/more effortful version. I think this is fair—some people who otherwise might have went with the more effortful version might instead go with the “lazier” version (and thus not benefit as much as they could have).
To mitigate this risk, I think you could recommend/nudge people toward the higher effort version, but still have complementary lower-effort versions for the (many) EAs who would be willing to do bite-sized versions of this but not the “18 page Google Doc with many open-ended questions & a complementary article” version. I also think there could be “foot-in-the-door” benefits—if someone likes the shorter version, they might be more inclined to think seriously about devoting several hours or weeks to more in-depth reflection.
Nonetheless, I think is a fantastic tool and I will be recommending it to several friends :) thank you for making it!
Hi Akash,
Thank you for the thoughtful comments!
I agree that being too long and overwhelming is perhaps the main issue with it currently. Just checking you saw this paragraph, which might reassure you a bit:
Our top priority was ‘just to get everything written down’. After we’ve had more feedback to check the stages / advice / structure is at least not obviously wrong, the next priority will be making it more digestible, engaging and easier to use. This may take some time, though, since I think we need to give the key ideas cover sheet and problem profiles some more attention next.
Ah, I completely missed that paragraph. Thank you for pointing it out, and best of luck as you create more digestible versions!
After reading the paragraph, I have a few additional thoughts:
I like the idea of a “just the key messages” version that focuses on spreading the ideas rather than why/how to apply them. But I wonder if it’d be even more important to release a version that focuses on the application. My guess is that most EAs who follow 80k hours would benefit more from tools that help them apply these concepts than readings that explain the content to them. My confidence is low, though—I’m going off of some interactions with EA friends & some general theories of behavior change. What do you think about this assessment (that it’s more important to get EAs to apply these concepts in their lives than to explain the key concepts)?
A book seems like a great idea, though I also expect that it’d appeal to the “high-effort” crowd. The more I think about it, the more I think that I really hope some of these become https://www.clearerthinking.org modules :) (in addition to a tool version like the one in the 2017 guide).
I wonder if creating shorter versions might also help you get more feedback, as well as feedback from a different audience. Dismantling the guide into smaller chunks could be helpful at figuring out which parts are most helpful/clear (and perhaps which parts are most worth developing/refining further). Also, if the shorter tools attract a different crowd (i.e., those who aren’t as willing to spends days or more making a career plan), the feedback on the “low-effort” version might differ in meaningful ways from the feedback on the high-effort version.
I’m sure there are plenty of initiatives going on at 80k, and I have no idea where “creating new short modules/interactive tools for career planning” would rank on the list. Nonetheless, I think it’d be a valuable idea (potentially more valuable than long guides or “key points” materials that are more informational than applied), and I’d be excited to see/share them if you decide to pursue them.
I’m pretty tempted to break it up into standalone sections in the next version.
I agree the tools are worth doing at some point (and maybe breaking up into multiple tools). I guess you’re also aware of our ‘make a decision’ tool that’s in guided track?
I think I might be a bit more skeptical about tools though. They take a lot longer to make & edit, and some fraction of our core audience finds them a bit lame (though some love them). Personally, I’d prefer a google doc which I can easily customise, where I can see everything on one page, and easily share for feedback. And it seems like the youth might agree :p
From Ben’s post:
“Later, we hope to release a ‘just the key messages’ version that aims to quickly communicate the key concepts, without as much detail on why or how to apply them. We realise the current article is very long – it’s not aimed at new readers but rather at people who might want to spend days or more making a career plan. ”
[Edit: Ben said the same thing at the same time, but much more kindly!]