The first half of this post reads like “I trust he didn’t know because he said so and I choose to trust him.” That’s not convincing at all. Since you talk about incentives of “disloyalty” on future actions, I want to also flag that being naive / too trusting encourages more fraud.
In the second half of the post, you assume it was indeed fraud but you say maybe it’s okay because we’re only in this situation now because he got caught. Which one is it? That makes me think “it sounds like you were going to defend him no matter what came out.”
I like the FedEX story. I think it’s quite different from the FTX situation, though. The stakes were so much lower (even if we adjust for inflation) and getting caught was an acceptable risk. By contrast, this FTX situation is so far beyond anything that is redeemable when you get caught that you should never have enough confidence in practice to even attempt it, even if we’re for the moment assuming act utilitarianism.
You ask us to envision a world where Sam amassed 300 billion and it’s all legit and secured because crypto (or other investments) hit a golden run. Okay, but what about the world where it looks like he he amassed 300 billion, but then it all implodes and he’s 100 billion on the hook instead of 10? It seems like, based on what we know about how he operated, that world is more likely than the successful one.
Yeah, perhaps I could have been more clear in my argumentation structure. Point 1 is a consideration on the object-level: was it willful? But points 2 and 3 assume that even if it was willful, the community response goes too far in condemnation, and condemnation without regard for loyalty/ambition might hurt its ability to actually do good in the world.
I think we should definitely not be loyal to people who commit massive fraud, or praise ambitious destruction! I know “stand fully by my people no matter how right or wrong they are” is a common moral stance but I think it’s enormously wrong and destructive. It’s an important virtue to support things that are good and not things that are bad, even if we’re very attached to them. (Also, like, I think SBF betrayed “us” first.)
(Sorry this is more of a skeleton of an argument than an actual argument, I keep meaning to write out more of my thinking here and not finding time)
or like, if you’re close with someone who did a significant bad thing and is now facing significant consequences for it, it can make sense to be loyal in the sense of—trying to help them make it through this time, trying to not make things worse for them. but not in the sense of denying or defending their wrongdoing.
The first half of this post reads like “I trust he didn’t know because he said so and I choose to trust him.” That’s not convincing at all. Since you talk about incentives of “disloyalty” on future actions, I want to also flag that being naive / too trusting encourages more fraud.
In the second half of the post, you assume it was indeed fraud but you say maybe it’s okay because we’re only in this situation now because he got caught. Which one is it? That makes me think “it sounds like you were going to defend him no matter what came out.”
I like the FedEX story. I think it’s quite different from the FTX situation, though. The stakes were so much lower (even if we adjust for inflation) and getting caught was an acceptable risk. By contrast, this FTX situation is so far beyond anything that is redeemable when you get caught that you should never have enough confidence in practice to even attempt it, even if we’re for the moment assuming act utilitarianism.
You ask us to envision a world where Sam amassed 300 billion and it’s all legit and secured because crypto (or other investments) hit a golden run. Okay, but what about the world where it looks like he he amassed 300 billion, but then it all implodes and he’s 100 billion on the hook instead of 10? It seems like, based on what we know about how he operated, that world is more likely than the successful one.
Yeah, perhaps I could have been more clear in my argumentation structure. Point 1 is a consideration on the object-level: was it willful? But points 2 and 3 assume that even if it was willful, the community response goes too far in condemnation, and condemnation without regard for loyalty/ambition might hurt its ability to actually do good in the world.
I think we should definitely not be loyal to people who commit massive fraud, or praise ambitious destruction! I know “stand fully by my people no matter how right or wrong they are” is a common moral stance but I think it’s enormously wrong and destructive. It’s an important virtue to support things that are good and not things that are bad, even if we’re very attached to them. (Also, like, I think SBF betrayed “us” first.)
(Sorry this is more of a skeleton of an argument than an actual argument, I keep meaning to write out more of my thinking here and not finding time)
or like, if you’re close with someone who did a significant bad thing and is now facing significant consequences for it, it can make sense to be loyal in the sense of—trying to help them make it through this time, trying to not make things worse for them. but not in the sense of denying or defending their wrongdoing.