[This comment of mine focuses just on two specific statements of yours which arenāt very related to the topic of demographic diversity; i.e., this comment is sort-of a tangent from the main point of the thread.]
Iām not recommending people read the Obamaās memoirs or Thinking in Bets over David Foster Wallace, the Hungry Brain, or Moral Mazes etc. for the sake of more representationātheyāre just clearly more valuable to read from a EA point of view.
FWIW, I started listening to Barack Obamaās memoir after you mentioned it the other day and Iām now a quarter of the way through, and currently it seems likely that it wonāt end up seeming as useful for me as Moral Mazes or The Hungry Brain. Iām very much enjoying itāheās an excellent writer and narrator, and his story is very interesting, and Iām very likely to recommend it. But so far it doesnāt seem to be substantially updating my beliefs or my frameworks for viewing the world.
And in general, I think āclearly more valuable to read from an EA point of viewā is a quite strong claim, given how much EAs will differ in what they already know about and what they are working on or will work on in future. Iād be comfortable saying ā[book 1] would be very likely more valuable for most EAs to read than [book 2]ā in some relatively extreme cases, like Superforecasting vs Consider the Lobster, but not just āclearly more valuableā, and not for more balanced cases like Moral Mazes vs B. Obamaās memoir.
I do think itās almost certain that Iāll end up having found B. Obamaās memoir much more useful than Consider the Lobster. (Also more enjoyable and interesting.)
But note that Consider the Lobster is ranked very last out of all 48 EA-relevant books Iāve read since learning of EA. And I say āTo be honest, Iām not sure why Wiblin recommended thisā, and also āThis is not quite a post of book recommendations, because [...] I list all EA-relevant books Iāve read, including those that I didnāt find very usefulā. So it isnāt the case that Consider the Lobster āis now recommended hereā; my mention of Consider the Lobster is actually an instance of my reported views differing from those in Beckstead and Wiblinās lists.
Obamaās memoir [ā¦ ] wonāt end up seeming as useful for me as [...] The Hungry Brain
I agree whatās most useful to a person is to an extent a function of their background. I agree that there are edge cases (Moral Mazes vs. Obama). But Iām standing by my strong claim that Obamaās memoir and some of my other recommendations as clearly more useful than the Hungry Brain and some others on your list. It is implied that this holds true for the average reader. One of the reasons for this is that some of these recommendations are based on arbitrary personal recommendations of audiobooks specifically (from a few years ago when there werenāt even that many good things on Audible). It would be suspicious convergence if the Jobs biography recommendation, which is likely based on an 8-year-old recommendation by Muehlhauser, should still be ranked highly for EAs to read.
it isnāt the case that Consider the Lobster āis now recommended hereā
I agree that youāve emphasized that your list should not be taken as authoritative in several places. Yet I stand by my claim that one can reasonably interpret Foster Wallace and other titles further down the list as recommended reading.
[I think the disagreements we have here donāt matter much. That said...]
I think the point about suspicious convergence is correct. I also think itās very reasonable to claim that B. Obamaās memoir will be more useful to the average EA than many of the things on my listāespecially the things which are rated as below average usefulness to me.
But I still think itās worth saying āmore valuable to the average EAā rather than āclearly more valuable from an EA perspectiveā. One reason is related to precisely the point about intellectual/āworldview homogeneity and echo chambers which you highlighted; I think we should be careful about saying things that could easily sound to people like āall EAs should do Xā.
(This is also related to issues like 80k highlighting a career pathway or problem area as particularly important on the margin on average, and there sometimes being an overreaction to this, including people switching out of other good paths towards this new path that isnāt a good fit for them. My impression is that 80k is now more careful to add caveats and stuff to reduce how much this happens.
Of course, the stakes are far lower for a Forum comment, about books rather than careers, deep into a very large thread!)
I agree that youāve emphasized that your list should not be taken as authoritative in several places. Yet I stand by my claim that one can reasonably interpret Foster Wallace and other titles further down the list as recommended reading.
Iāve emphasised not just that itās not authoritative but also that itās ānot quite a list of book recommendationsā, and that it includes things I didnāt find useful. I think itās plausible that someone could interpret the bottom ranked book as a recommendation, but not that that would be reasonableātheyād have to have ignored text right near the top and right below that recommendation.
[This comment of mine focuses just on two specific statements of yours which arenāt very related to the topic of demographic diversity; i.e., this comment is sort-of a tangent from the main point of the thread.]
FWIW, I started listening to Barack Obamaās memoir after you mentioned it the other day and Iām now a quarter of the way through, and currently it seems likely that it wonāt end up seeming as useful for me as Moral Mazes or The Hungry Brain. Iām very much enjoying itāheās an excellent writer and narrator, and his story is very interesting, and Iām very likely to recommend it. But so far it doesnāt seem to be substantially updating my beliefs or my frameworks for viewing the world.
And in general, I think āclearly more valuable to read from an EA point of viewā is a quite strong claim, given how much EAs will differ in what they already know about and what they are working on or will work on in future. Iād be comfortable saying ā[book 1] would be very likely more valuable for most EAs to read than [book 2]ā in some relatively extreme cases, like Superforecasting vs Consider the Lobster, but not just āclearly more valuableā, and not for more balanced cases like Moral Mazes vs B. Obamaās memoir.
I do think itās almost certain that Iāll end up having found B. Obamaās memoir much more useful than Consider the Lobster. (Also more enjoyable and interesting.)
But note that Consider the Lobster is ranked very last out of all 48 EA-relevant books Iāve read since learning of EA. And I say āTo be honest, Iām not sure why Wiblin recommended thisā, and also āThis is not quite a post of book recommendations, because [...] I list all EA-relevant books Iāve read, including those that I didnāt find very usefulā. So it isnāt the case that Consider the Lobster āis now recommended hereā; my mention of Consider the Lobster is actually an instance of my reported views differing from those in Beckstead and Wiblinās lists.
I agree whatās most useful to a person is to an extent a function of their background. I agree that there are edge cases (Moral Mazes vs. Obama). But Iām standing by my strong claim that Obamaās memoir and some of my other recommendations as clearly more useful than the Hungry Brain and some others on your list. It is implied that this holds true for the average reader. One of the reasons for this is that some of these recommendations are based on arbitrary personal recommendations of audiobooks specifically (from a few years ago when there werenāt even that many good things on Audible). It would be suspicious convergence if the Jobs biography recommendation, which is likely based on an 8-year-old recommendation by Muehlhauser, should still be ranked highly for EAs to read.
I agree that youāve emphasized that your list should not be taken as authoritative in several places. Yet I stand by my claim that one can reasonably interpret Foster Wallace and other titles further down the list as recommended reading.
[I think the disagreements we have here donāt matter much. That said...]
I think the point about suspicious convergence is correct. I also think itās very reasonable to claim that B. Obamaās memoir will be more useful to the average EA than many of the things on my listāespecially the things which are rated as below average usefulness to me.
But I still think itās worth saying āmore valuable to the average EAā rather than āclearly more valuable from an EA perspectiveā. One reason is related to precisely the point about intellectual/āworldview homogeneity and echo chambers which you highlighted; I think we should be careful about saying things that could easily sound to people like āall EAs should do Xā.
(This is also related to issues like 80k highlighting a career pathway or problem area as particularly important on the margin on average, and there sometimes being an overreaction to this, including people switching out of other good paths towards this new path that isnāt a good fit for them. My impression is that 80k is now more careful to add caveats and stuff to reduce how much this happens.
Of course, the stakes are far lower for a Forum comment, about books rather than careers, deep into a very large thread!)
Iāve emphasised not just that itās not authoritative but also that itās ānot quite a list of book recommendationsā, and that it includes things I didnāt find useful. I think itās plausible that someone could interpret the bottom ranked book as a recommendation, but not that that would be reasonableātheyād have to have ignored text right near the top and right below that recommendation.