It’s not clear to me whether we actually disagree on the value of “evolutionary cost-balancing approaches”, or we disagree on the level and value of the existing empirical information we have about suffering in nature.
On reflection, it’s certainly possible that I was assuming we had more evidence on suffering/wellbeing in nature (and in bees specfically) than we do. I haven’t looked into it too much and it intuitively felt to me like we could probably do better than the evolutionary reasoning stuff, but maybe the other available lines of evidence are similarly brittle.
I think this is fair but also it feels a bit like an isolated demand for rigor here. I think of my post, admittedly written quickly and on various subjects I’m not an expert in, primarily as a critique of another post that to me feels much more simplistic in comparison.
That might be right—I didn’t read the original post and I commented on your post not because I wanted to defend a particular side in the bee debate, but rather because I always found the evolutionary welfare arguments fascinating but dubious. I somehow decided to use this opportunity to get more towards the bottom of them. :)
Btw I really appreciate your substantive engagement and both your carefulness and detail of thought, I’ll probably revisit this thread in the future if I ever want to write another post/detailed comment about insects/wild animals!
That might be right—I didn’t read the original post and I commented on your post not because I wanted to defend a particular side in the bee debate, but rather because I always found the evolutionary welfare arguments fascinating but dubious. I somehow decided to use this opportunity to get more towards the bottom of them. :)
That’s very fair! Yeah I feel the same way albeit maybe more relatively happy about the evolutionary arguments; certainly part of the value of writing up the evolutionary argument is having them critiqued; the eusociality stuff in particular I don’t think is original to me but I’m not aware of a clear writeup elsewhere (and I didn’t find when I was trying to look for something to link).
On reflection, it’s certainly possible that I was assuming we had more evidence on suffering/wellbeing in nature (and in bees specfically) than we do. I haven’t looked into it too much and it intuitively felt to me like we could probably do better than the evolutionary reasoning stuff, but maybe the other available lines of evidence are similarly brittle.
That might be right—I didn’t read the original post and I commented on your post not because I wanted to defend a particular side in the bee debate, but rather because I always found the evolutionary welfare arguments fascinating but dubious. I somehow decided to use this opportunity to get more towards the bottom of them. :)
Btw I really appreciate your substantive engagement and both your carefulness and detail of thought, I’ll probably revisit this thread in the future if I ever want to write another post/detailed comment about insects/wild animals!
Thanks! Here’s the 2019 RP report on honeybee welfare and interventions in case you’re interested, other people are welcome to comment if there’s more recent work.
That’s very fair! Yeah I feel the same way albeit maybe more relatively happy about the evolutionary arguments; certainly part of the value of writing up the evolutionary argument is having them critiqued; the eusociality stuff in particular I don’t think is original to me but I’m not aware of a clear writeup elsewhere (and I didn’t find when I was trying to look for something to link).