I think there’s a bunch of really important content here and I hope people engage seriously. (I plan to.)
I find that I agree (in impression space, at the moment of reading) with ~70% of what you’re saying—and think it covers an awful lot of important ground, and wish it was better appreciated in these communities. Then I think have disagreements with the frame of ~20% (some of which rub me the wrong way in a manner which gives me a visceral urge to disengage, which I’m resisting; other parts of which I think may put attention on importantly the wrong things), and flat disagree (?) with ~10%.
I want to think about the places where I have disagreements. I suspect with some fraction I’ll end up thinking you’re ~right without further prompting; with some other fraction I’ll end up thinking you’re ~right after further discussion. On the other hand maybe I’ll notice that some of the things that passed muster at first read seem subtly wrong. I’m interested to find out whether the remaining disagreements after that are enough to give me a significantly different bottom line than you. (A reason I particularly liked reading this is that it feels like it has a shot at significantly changing my bottom line, which is very unusual.)
(With apologies for the contentless reply; I thought it was better to express how I was relating to it and how I wanted to relate to it than express nothing for now until I’ve done my thinking.)
I agree that there is some framing and language that could be changed to make people more likely to engage and to be convinced by the arguments (which are very important!). There were parts that I found quite annoying, especially at the end, that could easily be left out without damaging any of the content. To reiterate, I’m glad this was posted and appreciate it being written down, I just think some stylistic changes could have improved it
FWIW, I strongly encourage and endorse folks engaging with whatever parts of Eliezer’s post they want to, without feeling obliged to respond to every single topic or sub-topic or whatever.
I think there’s a bunch of really important content here and I hope people engage seriously. (I plan to.)
I find that I agree (in impression space, at the moment of reading) with ~70% of what you’re saying—and think it covers an awful lot of important ground, and wish it was better appreciated in these communities. Then I think have disagreements with the frame of ~20% (some of which rub me the wrong way in a manner which gives me a visceral urge to disengage, which I’m resisting; other parts of which I think may put attention on importantly the wrong things), and flat disagree (?) with ~10%.
I want to think about the places where I have disagreements. I suspect with some fraction I’ll end up thinking you’re ~right without further prompting; with some other fraction I’ll end up thinking you’re ~right after further discussion. On the other hand maybe I’ll notice that some of the things that passed muster at first read seem subtly wrong. I’m interested to find out whether the remaining disagreements after that are enough to give me a significantly different bottom line than you. (A reason I particularly liked reading this is that it feels like it has a shot at significantly changing my bottom line, which is very unusual.)
(With apologies for the contentless reply; I thought it was better to express how I was relating to it and how I wanted to relate to it than express nothing for now until I’ve done my thinking.)
I agree that there is some framing and language that could be changed to make people more likely to engage and to be convinced by the arguments (which are very important!). There were parts that I found quite annoying, especially at the end, that could easily be left out without damaging any of the content. To reiterate, I’m glad this was posted and appreciate it being written down, I just think some stylistic changes could have improved it
FWIW, I strongly encourage and endorse folks engaging with whatever parts of Eliezer’s post they want to, without feeling obliged to respond to every single topic or sub-topic or whatever.
(Also, I like your comment and find it helpful.)
(I edited to get my meaning closer to correct)