An alternate stance on moderation (from @Habryka.)
This is from this comment responding to this post about there being too many bans on LessWrong. Note how the LessWrong is less moderated than here in that it (I guess) responds to individual posts less often, but more moderated in that I guess it rate limits people more without reason.
I found it thought provoking. I’d recommend reading it.
Thanks for making this post!
One of the reasons why I like rate-limits instead of bans is that it allows people to complain about the rate-limiting and to participate in discussion on their own posts (so seeing a harsh rate-limit of something like “1 comment per 3 days” is not equivalent to a general ban from LessWrong, but should be more interpreted as “please comment primarily on your own posts”, though of course it shares many important properties of a ban).
This is a pretty opposite approach to the EA forum which favours bans.
Things that seem most important to bring up in terms of moderation philosophy:
Moderation on LessWrong does not depend on effort
“Another thing I’ve noticed is that almost all the users are trying. They are trying to use rationality, trying to understand what’s been written here, trying to apply Baye’s rule or understand AI. Even some of the users with negative karma are trying, just having more difficulty.”
Just because someone is genuinely trying to contribute to LessWrong, does not mean LessWrong is a good place for them. LessWrong has a particular culture, with particular standards and particular interests, and I think many people, even if they are genuinely trying, don’t fit well within that culture and those standards.
In making rate-limiting decisions like this I don’t pay much attention to whether the user in question is “genuinely trying ” to contribute to LW, I am mostly just evaluating the effects I see their actions having on the quality of the discussions happening on the site, and the quality of the ideas they are contributing.
Motivation and goals are of course a relevant component to model, but that mostly pushes in the opposite direction, in that if I have someone who seems to be making great contributions, and I learn they aren’t even trying, then that makes me more excited, since there is upside if they do become more motivated in the future.
I sense this is quite different to the EA forum too. I can’t imagine a mod saying I don’t pay much attention to whether the user in question is “genuinely trying”. I find this honesty pretty stark. Feels like a thing moderators aren’t allowed to say. “We don’t like the quality of your comments and we don’t think you can improve”.
Signal to Noise ratio is important
Thomas and Elizabeth pointed this out already, but just because someone’s comments don’t seem actively bad, doesn’t mean I don’t want to limit their ability to contribute. We do a lot of things on LW to improve the signal to noise ratio of content on the site, and one of those things is to reduce the amount of noise, even if the mean of what we remove looks not actively harmful.
We of course also do other things than to remove some of the lower signal content to improve the signal to noise ratio. Voting does a lot, how we sort the frontpage does a lot, subscriptions and notification systems do a lot. But rate-limiting is also a tool I use for the same purpose.
Old users are owed explanations, new users are (mostly) not
I think if you’ve been around for a while on LessWrong, and I decide to rate-limit you, then I think it makes sense for me to make some time to argue with you about that, and give you the opportunity to convince me that I am wrong. But if you are new, and haven’t invested a lot in the site, then I think I owe you relatively little.
I think in doing the above rate-limits, we did not do enough to give established users the affordance to push back and argue with us about them. I do think most of these users are relatively recent or are users we’ve been very straightforward with since shortly after they started commenting that we don’t think they are breaking even on their contributions to the site (like the OP Gerald Monroe, with whom we had 3 separate conversations over the past few months), and for those I don’t think we owe them much of an explanation. LessWrong is a walled garden.
You do not by default have the right to be here, and I don’t want to, and cannot, accept the burden of explaining to everyone who wants to be here but who I don’t want here, why I am making my decisions. As such a moderation principle that we’ve been aspiring to for quite a while is to let new users know as early as possible if we think them being on the site is unlikely to work out, so that if you have been around for a while you can feel stable, and also so that you don’t invest in something that will end up being taken away from you.
Feedback helps a bit, especially if you are young, but usually doesn’t
Maybe there are other people who are much better at giving feedback and helping people grow as commenters, but my personal experience is that giving users feedback, especially the second or third time, rarely tends to substantially improve things.
I think this sucks. I would much rather be in a world where the usual reasons why I think someone isn’t positively contributing to LessWrong were of the type that a short conversation could clear up and fix, but it alas does not appear so, and after having spent many hundreds of hours over the years giving people individualized feedback, I don’t really think “give people specific and detailed feedback” is a viable moderation strategy, at least more than once or twice per user. I recognize that this can feel unfair on the receiving end, and I also feel sad about it.
I do think the one exception here is that if people are young or are non-native english speakers. Do let me know if you are in your teens or you are a non-native english speaker who is still learning the language. People do really get a lot better at communication between the ages of 14-22 and people’s english does get substantially better over time, and this helps with all kinds communication issues.
Again this is very blunt but I’m not sure it’s wrong.
We consider legibility, but its only a relatively small input into our moderation decisions
It is valuable and a precious public good to make it easy to know which actions you take will cause you to end up being removed from a space. However, that legibility also comes at great cost, especially in social contexts. Every clear and bright-line rule you outline will have people budding right up against it, and de-facto, in my experience, moderation of social spaces like LessWrong is not the kind of thing you can do while being legible in the way that for example modern courts aim to be legible.
As such, we don’t have laws. If anything we have something like case-law which gets established as individual moderation disputes arise, which we then use as guidelines for future decisions, but also a huge fraction of our moderation decisions are downstream of complicated models we formed about what kind of conversations and interactions work on LessWrong, and what role we want LessWrong to play in the broader world, and those shift and change as new evidence comes in and the world changes.
I do ultimately still try pretty hard to give people guidelines and to draw lines that help people feel secure in their relationship to LessWrong, and I care a lot about this, but at the end of the day I will still make many from-the-outside-arbitrary-seeming-decisions in order to keep LessWrong the precious walled garden that it is.
I try really hard to not build an ideological echo chamber
When making moderation decisions, it’s always at the top of my mind whether I am tempted to make a decision one way or another because they disagree with me on some object-level issue. I try pretty hard to not have that affect my decisions, and as a result have what feels to me a subjectively substantially higher standard for rate-limiting or banning people who disagree with me, than for people who agree with me. I think this is reflected in the decisions above.
I do feel comfortable judging people on the methodologies and abstract principles that they seem to use to arrive at their conclusions. LessWrong has a specific epistemology, and I care about protecting that. If you are primarily trying to…
argue from authority,
don’t like speaking in probabilistic terms,
aren’t comfortable holding multiple conflicting models in your head at the same time,
or are averse to breaking things down into mechanistic and reductionist terms,
then LW is probably not for you, and I feel fine with that. I feel comfortable reducing the visibility or volume of content on the site that is in conflict with these epistemological principles (of course this list isn’t exhaustive, in-general the LW sequences are the best pointer towards the epistemological foundations of the site).
It feels cringe to read that basically if I don’t get the sequences lessWrong might rate limit me. But it is good to be open about it. I don’t think the EA forum’s core philosophy is as easily expressed.
If you see me or other LW moderators fail to judge people on epistemological principles but instead see us directly rate-limiting or banning users on the basis of object-level opinions that even if they seem wrong seem to have been arrived at via relatively sane principles, then I do really think you should complain and push back at us. I see my mandate as head of LW to only extend towards enforcing what seems to me the shared epistemological foundation of LW, and to not have the mandate to enforce my own object-level beliefs on the participants of this site.
Now some more comments on the object-level:
I overall feel good about rate-limiting everyone on the above list. I think it will probably make the conversations on the site go better and make more people contribute to the site.
Us doing more extensive rate-limiting is an experiment, and we will see how it goes. As kave said in the other response to this post, the rule that suggested these specific rate-limits does not seem like it has an amazing track record, though I currently endorse it as something that calls things to my attention (among many other heuristics).
Also, if anyone reading this is worried about being rate-limited or banned in the future, feel free to reach out to me or other moderators on Intercom. I am generally happy to give people direct and frank feedback about their contributions to the site, as well as how likely I am to take future moderator actions. Uncertainty is costly, and I think it’s worth a lot of my time to help people understand to what degree investing in LessWrong makes sense for them.
This is a pretty opposite approach to the EA forum which favours bans.
If you remove ones for site-integrity reasons (spamming DMs, ban evasion, vote manipulation), bans are fairly uncommon. In contrast, it sounds like LW does do some bans of early-stage users (cf. the disclaimer on this list), which could be cutting off users with a high risk of problematic behavior before it fully blossoms. Reading further, it seems like the stuff that triggers a rate limit at LW usually triggers no action, private counseling, or downvoting here.
As for more general moderation philosophy, I think the EA Forum has an unusual relationship to the broader EA community that makes the moderation approach outlined above a significantly worse fit for the Forum than for LW. As a practical matter, the Forum is the ~semi-official forum for the effective altruism movement. Organizations post official announcements here as a primary means of publishing them, but rarely on (say) the effectivealtruism subreddit. Posting certain content here is seen as a way of whistleblowing to the broader community as a whole. Major decisionmakers are known to read and even participate in the Forum.
In contrast (although I am not an LW user or a member of the broader rationality community), it seems to me that the LW forum doesn’t have this particular relationship to a real-world community. One could say that the LW forum is the official online instantiation of the LessWrong community (which is not limited to being an online community, but that’s a major part of it). In that case, we have something somewhat like the (made-up) Roman Catholic Forum (RCF) that is moderated by designees of the Pope. Since the Pope is the authoritative source on what makes something legitimately Roman Catholic, it’s appropriate for his designees to employ a heavier hand in deciding what posts and posters are in or out of bounds at the RCF. But CEA/EVF have—rightfully—mostly disowned any idea that they (or any other specific entity) decide what is or isn’t a valid or correct way to practice effective altruism.
One could also say that the LW forum is an online instantiation of the broader rationality community. That would be somewhat akin to John and Jane’s (made up) Baptist Forum (JJBF) that is moderated by John and Jane. One of the core tenets of Baptist polity is that there are no centralized, authoritative arbiters of faith and practice. So JJBF is just one of many places that Baptists and their critics can go to discuss Baptist topics. It’s appropriate for John and Jane to to employ a heavier hand in deciding what posts and posters are in or out of bounds at the JJBF because there are plenty of other, similar places for them to go. JJBF isn’t anything special. But as noted above, that isn’t really true of the EA Forum because of its ~semi-official status in a real-world social movement.
It’s ironic that—in my mind—either a broader or narrower conception of what LW is would justify tighter content-based moderation practices, while those are harder to justify in the in-between place that the EA Forum occupies. I think the mods here do a good job handling this awkward place for the most part by enforcing viewpoint-neutral rules like civility and letting the community manage most things through the semi-democratic karma method (although I would be somewhat more willing to remove certain content than they are).
This also roughly matches my impression. I do think I would prefer the EA community to either go towards more centralized governance or less centralized governance in the relevant way, but I agree that given how things are, the EA Forum team has less leeway with moderation than the LW team.
But CEA/EVF have—rightfully—mostly disowned any idea that they (or any other specific entity) decide what is or isn’t a valid or correct way to practice effective altruism.
Apart from choosing who can attend their conferences which are the de facto place that many community members meet, writing their intro to EA, managing the effective altruism website and offering criticism of specific members behaviour.
Seems like they are the de facto people who decide what is or isn’t valid way to practice effective altruism. If anything more than the LessWrong team (or maybe rationalists are just inherently unmanageable).
I agree on the ironic point though. I think you might assume that the EA forum would moderate more than LW, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Status note: This comment is written by me and reflects my views. I ran it past the other moderators, but they might have major disagreements with it.
I agree with a lot of Jason’s view here. The EA community is indeed much bigger than the EA Forum, and the Forum would serve its role as an online locus much less well if we used moderation action to police the epistemic practices of its participants.
I don’t actually think this that bad. I think it is a strength of the EA community that it is large enough and has sufficiently many worldviews that any central discussion space is going to be a bit of a mishmash of epistemologies.[1]
Some corresponding ways this viewpoint causes me to be reluctant to apply Habryka’s philosophy:[2]
Something like a judicial process is much more important to me. We try much harder than my read of LessWrong to apply rules consistently. We have the Forum Norms doc and our public history of cases forms something much closer to a legal code + case law than LW has. Obviously we’re far away from what would meet a judicial standard, but I view much of my work through that lens. Also notable is that all nontrivial moderation decisions get one or two moderators to second the proposal.
Related both to the epistemic diversity, and the above, I am much more reluctant to rely on my personal judgement about whether someone is a positive contributor to the discussion. I still do have those opinions, but am much more likely to use my power as a regular user to karma-vote on the content.
Some points of agreement:
Old users are owed explanations, new users are (mostly) not
Agreed. We are much more likely to make judgement calls in cases of new users. And much less likely to invest time in explaining the decision. We are still much less likely to ban new users than LessWrong. (Which, to be clear, I don’t think would have been tenable on LessWrong when they instituted their current policies, which was after the launch of GPT-4 and a giant influx of low quality content.)
I try really hard to not build an ideological echo chamber
Most of the work I do as a moderator is reading reports and recommending no official action. I have the internal experience of mostly fighting others to keep the Forum an open platform. Obviously that is a compatible experience with overmoderating the Forum into an echo chamber, but I will at least bring this up as a strong point of philosophical agreement.
Final points:
I do think we could potentially give more “near-ban” rate limits, such as the 1 comment/3 days. The main benefit of this I see is as allowing the user to write content disagreeing with their ban.
Controversial point! Maybe if everyone adopted my own epistemic practices the community would be better off. It would certainly gain in the ability to communicate smoothly with itself, and would probably spend less effort pulling in opposite directions as a result, but I think the size constraints and/or deference to authority that would be required would not be worth it.
I do think we could potentially give more “near-ban” rate limits, such as the 1 comment/3 days. The main benefit of this I see is as allowing the user to write content disagreeing with their ban.
I think the banned individual should almost always get at least one final statement to disagree with the ban after its pronouncement. Even the Romulans allowed (will allow?) that. Absent unusual circumstances, I think they—and not the mods—should get the last word, so I would also allow a single reply if the mods responded to the final statement.
More generally, I’d be interested in ~”civility probation,” under which a problematic poster could be placed for ~three months as an option they could choose as an alternative to a 2-4 week outright ban. Under civility probation, any “probation officer” (trusted non-mod users) would be empowered to remove content too close to the civility line and optionally temp-ban the user for a cooling-off period of 48 hours. The theory of impact comes from the criminology literature, which tells us that speed and certainty of sanction are more effective than severity. If the mods later determined after full deliberation that the second comment actually violated the rules in a way that crossed the action threshold, then they could activate the withheld 2-4 week ban for the first offense and/or impose a new suspension for the new one.
We are seeing more of this in the criminal system—swift but moderate “intermediate sanctions” for things like failing a drug test, as opposed to doing little about probation violations until things reach a certain threshold and then going to the judge to revoke probation and send the offender away for at least several months. As far as due process, the theory is that the offender received their due process (consideration by a judge, right to presumption of innocence overcome only by proof beyond a reasonable doubt) in the proceedings that led to the imposition of probation in the first place.
An alternate stance on moderation (from @Habryka.)
This is from this comment responding to this post about there being too many bans on LessWrong. Note how the LessWrong is less moderated than here in that it (I guess) responds to individual posts less often, but more moderated in that I guess it rate limits people more without reason.
I found it thought provoking. I’d recommend reading it.
This is a pretty opposite approach to the EA forum which favours bans.
I sense this is quite different to the EA forum too. I can’t imagine a mod saying I don’t pay much attention to whether the user in question is “genuinely trying”. I find this honesty pretty stark. Feels like a thing moderators aren’t allowed to say. “We don’t like the quality of your comments and we don’t think you can improve”.
Again this is very blunt but I’m not sure it’s wrong.
It feels cringe to read that basically if I don’t get the sequences lessWrong might rate limit me. But it is good to be open about it. I don’t think the EA forum’s core philosophy is as easily expressed.
If you remove ones for site-integrity reasons (spamming DMs, ban evasion, vote manipulation), bans are fairly uncommon. In contrast, it sounds like LW does do some bans of early-stage users (cf. the disclaimer on this list), which could be cutting off users with a high risk of problematic behavior before it fully blossoms. Reading further, it seems like the stuff that triggers a rate limit at LW usually triggers no action, private counseling, or downvoting here.
As for more general moderation philosophy, I think the EA Forum has an unusual relationship to the broader EA community that makes the moderation approach outlined above a significantly worse fit for the Forum than for LW. As a practical matter, the Forum is the ~semi-official forum for the effective altruism movement. Organizations post official announcements here as a primary means of publishing them, but rarely on (say) the effectivealtruism subreddit. Posting certain content here is seen as a way of whistleblowing to the broader community as a whole. Major decisionmakers are known to read and even participate in the Forum.
In contrast (although I am not an LW user or a member of the broader rationality community), it seems to me that the LW forum doesn’t have this particular relationship to a real-world community. One could say that the LW forum is the official online instantiation of the LessWrong community (which is not limited to being an online community, but that’s a major part of it). In that case, we have something somewhat like the (made-up) Roman Catholic Forum (RCF) that is moderated by designees of the Pope. Since the Pope is the authoritative source on what makes something legitimately Roman Catholic, it’s appropriate for his designees to employ a heavier hand in deciding what posts and posters are in or out of bounds at the RCF. But CEA/EVF have—rightfully—mostly disowned any idea that they (or any other specific entity) decide what is or isn’t a valid or correct way to practice effective altruism.
One could also say that the LW forum is an online instantiation of the broader rationality community. That would be somewhat akin to John and Jane’s (made up) Baptist Forum (JJBF) that is moderated by John and Jane. One of the core tenets of Baptist polity is that there are no centralized, authoritative arbiters of faith and practice. So JJBF is just one of many places that Baptists and their critics can go to discuss Baptist topics. It’s appropriate for John and Jane to to employ a heavier hand in deciding what posts and posters are in or out of bounds at the JJBF because there are plenty of other, similar places for them to go. JJBF isn’t anything special. But as noted above, that isn’t really true of the EA Forum because of its ~semi-official status in a real-world social movement.
It’s ironic that—in my mind—either a broader or narrower conception of what LW is would justify tighter content-based moderation practices, while those are harder to justify in the in-between place that the EA Forum occupies. I think the mods here do a good job handling this awkward place for the most part by enforcing viewpoint-neutral rules like civility and letting the community manage most things through the semi-democratic karma method (although I would be somewhat more willing to remove certain content than they are).
This also roughly matches my impression. I do think I would prefer the EA community to either go towards more centralized governance or less centralized governance in the relevant way, but I agree that given how things are, the EA Forum team has less leeway with moderation than the LW team.
Wait it seems like a higher proportion of EA forum moderations are bans, but that LW does more moderation and more is rate limits? Is that not right?
My guess is LW both bans and rate-limits more.
Apart from choosing who can attend their conferences which are the de facto place that many community members meet, writing their intro to EA, managing the effective altruism website and offering criticism of specific members behaviour.
Seems like they are the de facto people who decide what is or isn’t valid way to practice effective altruism. If anything more than the LessWrong team (or maybe rationalists are just inherently unmanageable).
I agree on the ironic point though. I think you might assume that the EA forum would moderate more than LW, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
I want to throw in a bit of my philosophy here.
Status note: This comment is written by me and reflects my views. I ran it past the other moderators, but they might have major disagreements with it.
I agree with a lot of Jason’s view here. The EA community is indeed much bigger than the EA Forum, and the Forum would serve its role as an online locus much less well if we used moderation action to police the epistemic practices of its participants.
I don’t actually think this that bad. I think it is a strength of the EA community that it is large enough and has sufficiently many worldviews that any central discussion space is going to be a bit of a mishmash of epistemologies.[1]
Some corresponding ways this viewpoint causes me to be reluctant to apply Habryka’s philosophy:[2]
Something like a judicial process is much more important to me. We try much harder than my read of LessWrong to apply rules consistently. We have the Forum Norms doc and our public history of cases forms something much closer to a legal code + case law than LW has. Obviously we’re far away from what would meet a judicial standard, but I view much of my work through that lens. Also notable is that all nontrivial moderation decisions get one or two moderators to second the proposal.
Related both to the epistemic diversity, and the above, I am much more reluctant to rely on my personal judgement about whether someone is a positive contributor to the discussion. I still do have those opinions, but am much more likely to use my power as a regular user to karma-vote on the content.
Some points of agreement:
Agreed. We are much more likely to make judgement calls in cases of new users. And much less likely to invest time in explaining the decision. We are still much less likely to ban new users than LessWrong. (Which, to be clear, I don’t think would have been tenable on LessWrong when they instituted their current policies, which was after the launch of GPT-4 and a giant influx of low quality content.)
Most of the work I do as a moderator is reading reports and recommending no official action. I have the internal experience of mostly fighting others to keep the Forum an open platform. Obviously that is a compatible experience with overmoderating the Forum into an echo chamber, but I will at least bring this up as a strong point of philosophical agreement.
Final points:
I do think we could potentially give more “near-ban” rate limits, such as the 1 comment/3 days. The main benefit of this I see is as allowing the user to write content disagreeing with their ban.
Controversial point! Maybe if everyone adopted my own epistemic practices the community would be better off. It would certainly gain in the ability to communicate smoothly with itself, and would probably spend less effort pulling in opposite directions as a result, but I think the size constraints and/or deference to authority that would be required would not be worth it.
Note that Habryka has been a huge influence on me. These disagreements are what remains after his large influence on me.
I think the banned individual should almost always get at least one final statement to disagree with the ban after its pronouncement. Even the Romulans allowed (will allow?) that. Absent unusual circumstances, I think they—and not the mods—should get the last word, so I would also allow a single reply if the mods responded to the final statement.
More generally, I’d be interested in ~”civility probation,” under which a problematic poster could be placed for ~three months as an option they could choose as an alternative to a 2-4 week outright ban. Under civility probation, any “probation officer” (trusted non-mod users) would be empowered to remove content too close to the civility line and optionally temp-ban the user for a cooling-off period of 48 hours. The theory of impact comes from the criminology literature, which tells us that speed and certainty of sanction are more effective than severity. If the mods later determined after full deliberation that the second comment actually violated the rules in a way that crossed the action threshold, then they could activate the withheld 2-4 week ban for the first offense and/or impose a new suspension for the new one.
We are seeing more of this in the criminal system—swift but moderate “intermediate sanctions” for things like failing a drug test, as opposed to doing little about probation violations until things reach a certain threshold and then going to the judge to revoke probation and send the offender away for at least several months. As far as due process, the theory is that the offender received their due process (consideration by a judge, right to presumption of innocence overcome only by proof beyond a reasonable doubt) in the proceedings that led to the imposition of probation in the first place.
“will allow?”
very good.
Yeah seems fair.