On the one hand, I have a strong urge to say something like: But David, community building is not only useful for “trust” and “vetting people”!
On the other hand—In the last 2.5 years as a community builder, I was fighting desperately trying to make EA groups more practical and educational, instead of social and network-based.
I’m not the only one. I know many other community builders who tried to argue that our resources should focus on “tools”, and less on anecdotes about why the maximization mindset is important and anecdotes about the most pressing cause areas. Instead, I think that the value that we provide should be something in the lines of providing them with actual tools for applying the maximization mindset, and for prioritizing their career/donation/research/etc opportunities by social impact.
Almost everyone I spoke with agreed with this notion, including multiple representatives from CEA—but nothing changed so far regarding groups’ resources or incentives. So, if the main value of community building was meant to be for vetting, then I’d say that the community failed. I don’t strongly believe this is the case right now, but I think that many perceive this to be the main value we provide. Anyhow—SBF is a great example, but I think that trust failures are not the only reason why this shift is needed.
My view is that instead of being social-focused, we need a more practical form of community building. EA distinct itself from the traditional NGO world or from other communities using “impact” as a buzzword, because we care about maximizing impact. But then, groups don’t really have the resources to actually help people maximize their impact. After 2.5 years, I still don’t know where to find a good, simple article or video that describes how to create a theory of change (which is needed when submitting grants to EA funders!), or a clear article describing the practical aspects of “Thinking at the margin”, if I want to send those to community members. It takes an absurdly long time to find a good article about the basics of cost-effectiveness estimates, compared to how rooted this idea is in the movement. How long does it take to find an advanced handbook on conducting cost-effectiveness research in the context of social impact? I don’t know, we found none and had to write such a guide in EA Israel.
I strongly agree with the notion that “community” isn’t binary:
And I have a few ideas what a less community-centered EA might look like. To preface the ideas, however, “community” isn’t binary.
But I think that the suggestion in this post goes too far on the non-community side of the spectrum. I think that communities provide significant value (such as motivation or connections), and thatthis is the bottleneck for impact for many people. And I also wouldn’t denounce the concept of “being an EA” too quickly, as it still means something like “I think carefully about helping others, compared to the default scope-insensitive notion of doing good”. But convincing people of this basic concept is really an easy win in my opinion. The more important challenge in my view is getting people to develop their own, independent outlooks on maximizing impact.
This seems very plausibly a better direction. I think we agree there is something wrong, and the direction you’re pointing may be a better one—but I’m concerned, because I don’t see a way to make an extent and large community shift, and think that we need a more concrete theory of change...
Speaking of which, “I still don’t know where to find a good, simple article or video that describes how to create a theory of change”—you should have asked! I’d recommend here and here. (I also have a couple more PDFs of relevant articles from classes in grad school, if you want.)
Don’t you think that CEA can run a large community shift, by changing the guidance and incentives for local groups?
(Thank you so much for the material! Seems better than the material I have today, but I think we need much simpler and more communicative material for proper out-facing community building)
I hope they can, but don’t know that it’s easy to direct groups so easily. My biggest concern is with college EA groups, where well-intentioned 21 year olds with very limited life experience are running groups, often without much external monitoring.
And regarding material for theories of change, I’m skeptical that it can be taught well without somewhat deep engagement. In grad school, it took thinking, feedback, and practice to get to the point where we could coherently lay out a useful theory of change.
On the one hand, I have a strong urge to say something like: But David, community building is not only useful for “trust” and “vetting people”!
On the other hand—In the last 2.5 years as a community builder, I was fighting desperately trying to make EA groups more practical and educational, instead of social and network-based.
I’m not the only one. I know many other community builders who tried to argue that our resources should focus on “tools”, and less on anecdotes about why the maximization mindset is important and anecdotes about the most pressing cause areas.
Instead, I think that the value that we provide should be something in the lines of providing them with actual tools for applying the maximization mindset, and for prioritizing their career/donation/research/etc opportunities by social impact.
Almost everyone I spoke with agreed with this notion, including multiple representatives from CEA—but nothing changed so far regarding groups’ resources or incentives.
So, if the main value of community building was meant to be for vetting, then I’d say that the community failed. I don’t strongly believe this is the case right now, but I think that many perceive this to be the main value we provide. Anyhow—SBF is a great example, but I think that trust failures are not the only reason why this shift is needed.
My view is that instead of being social-focused, we need a more practical form of community building. EA distinct itself from the traditional NGO world or from other communities using “impact” as a buzzword, because we care about maximizing impact. But then, groups don’t really have the resources to actually help people maximize their impact. After 2.5 years, I still don’t know where to find a good, simple article or video that describes how to create a theory of change (which is needed when submitting grants to EA funders!), or a clear article describing the practical aspects of “Thinking at the margin”, if I want to send those to community members. It takes an absurdly long time to find a good article about the basics of cost-effectiveness estimates, compared to how rooted this idea is in the movement. How long does it take to find an advanced handbook on conducting cost-effectiveness research in the context of social impact? I don’t know, we found none and had to write such a guide in EA Israel.
I strongly agree with the notion that “community” isn’t binary:
But I think that the suggestion in this post goes too far on the non-community side of the spectrum. I think that communities provide significant value (such as motivation or connections), and thatthis is the bottleneck for impact for many people. And I also wouldn’t denounce the concept of “being an EA” too quickly, as it still means something like “I think carefully about helping others, compared to the default scope-insensitive notion of doing good”.
But convincing people of this basic concept is really an easy win in my opinion. The more important challenge in my view is getting people to develop their own, independent outlooks on maximizing impact.
I really like this framing Gideon. It seems aligned with CEA’s Core EA principles. I’d love EA to be better at helping people learn skills. One of our working drafts for an EA MOOC focuses more on the those core principles and skills. Is something like this work-in-progress closer to what you had in mind?
This seems very plausibly a better direction. I think we agree there is something wrong, and the direction you’re pointing may be a better one—but I’m concerned, because I don’t see a way to make an extent and large community shift, and think that we need a more concrete theory of change...
Speaking of which, “I still don’t know where to find a good, simple article or video that describes how to create a theory of change”—you should have asked! I’d recommend here and here. (I also have a couple more PDFs of relevant articles from classes in grad school, if you want.)
Don’t you think that CEA can run a large community shift, by changing the guidance and incentives for local groups?
(Thank you so much for the material! Seems better than the material I have today, but I think we need much simpler and more communicative material for proper out-facing community building)
I hope they can, but don’t know that it’s easy to direct groups so easily. My biggest concern is with college EA groups, where well-intentioned 21 year olds with very limited life experience are running groups, often without much external monitoring.
And regarding material for theories of change, I’m skeptical that it can be taught well without somewhat deep engagement. In grad school, it took thinking, feedback, and practice to get to the point where we could coherently lay out a useful theory of change.