Hmmm I guess I don’t consider this to shift me much since your account seems compatible with what ben wrote:
Alice quit being vegan while working there. She was sick with covid in a foreign country, with only the three Nonlinear cofounders around, but nobody in the house was willing to go out and get her vegan food, so she barely ate for 2 days. Alice eventually gave in and ate non-vegan food in the house. She also said that the Nonlinear cofounders marked her quitting veganism as a ‘win’, as they thad been arguing that she should not be vegan.
(Nonlinear disputes this, and says that they did go out and buy her some vegan burgers food and had some vegan food in the house. They agree that she quit being vegan at this time, and say it was because being vegan was unusually hard due to being in Puerto Rico. Alice disputes that she received any vegan burgers.)
I agree that if Alice said otherwise that could be bad but I’m unsure how much I care if she originally loosely complained about you to friends but has since walked it back. Maybe if she told loads of people and has since walked it back then that’s bad. And I can understand how unfair this feels. But it sort of doesn’t update me on ben being a poor judge since his account was compatible from the get go
I don’t know if this is at the level of moderator intervention, so I’m just going to flag that saying Alice “bitched” about something to her friends feels potentially derogatory or dismissive to me. I know people use the word with different levels of seriousness and with different connotations. In this context, though, it read to me like minimizing the value of what Alice might have said to her friends.
If in fact Alice was mistreated, “bitching” to her friends would be a way of notifying people of a harmful situation—and therefore potentially closer to informing, sharing, or raising serious concerns to her friends.
Regardless of that, I often wonder when I see men use bitch or bitching when describing a woman and her actions whether they’d use the same language to describe the actions of a man. Maybe you would, and maybe I’d read your use of the word here differently then. But I would generally caution anyone to think about the negative connotations those words can have and the sexism they can perpetrate when used to describe women.
Speaking as an advisor to the mod team who ran this past some active mods:
This isn’t something we’d issue a warning for in this context (describing a third party’s actions in a way that doesn’t seem aggressive or dismissive). In the context of a direct attack (e.g. “why are you bitching to us about something that doesn’t matter?”), it could make a comment seem more aggressive and might (weakly) push us toward more substantial action.
*****
Taking my advisor hat off, I generally prefer for the Forum to be less coarse, and I do see “bitching” as gendered (similar to e.g. “pussy”), so on balance I’d rather see “complaining”.
This is relatively minor in the grand scheme of my personal preferences for Forum comments, but I recognize that other people might (justifiably!) be more offended by the word than I am. As a cis male, I’ve seldom been accused of “bitching” about things; I’d guess that certain other Forum users aren’t so lucky.
I’ll change it, it’s kind of a useful word though. As evidenced by being used 2 other times on the forum already.
Not wild about this interaction, glad you raised that you don’t like the word, but are we really doing accusations of sexism based on single words now. sigh.
I think Alice herself has walked back the claim—my point is that I support Alice’s right to complain offhandedly about something but to give a more accurate account when pushed. Do i sometimes complain in company in ways I wouldn’t entirely endorse. Sure. Aren’t we allowed to give loose accounts to friends.
Edit Okay seems like the consensus is this wasn’t accusatory. I’m sorry @pinkfrog, my error. I can be sensitive about this stuff, but that’s not your fault.
I’d be curious to hear why you find it a useful word in this context. Also happy to hear what you didn’t like about my comment, either here or over a message.
None of these words really did what I wanted and I was typing at speed. Was happy to change it if it caused confusion.
It has a whole paragraph of implicit accusation of sexism for use of a relatively commonly used word. If I only used that word about women then that would be bad behaviour. It seems like a lot to assume from a single use. I would have preferred “I read that as derogative did you intend that”, though you are free to do as you wish. I hope you are well.
(Some responses based on the edits you made to your original comment)
To be clear, I didn’t accuse you of sexism in my comment. And I do like the word in certain uses, actually. Like I said in my comment, I know it can be used in different ways and with different connotations.
I wanted to point out that it’s a loaded word that can cause harm if used in certain ways, and you’re using it within a specific, loaded context. I didn’t make a statement on the veracity of Alice’s claims but imagined if they were true (as I said, “if in fact Alice was mistreated”) how it might feel for her to have someone describe her as just bitching about the situation (which could be a potentially hurtful feeling). And as I flagged, I wasn’t sure how you were using it—which means both that I don’t assume it was in a sexist way and that I also didn’t feel clear that it wasn’t in a sexist way.
I consider swear words or words that have a history of derogatory use/use as slurs as words to be extra thoughtful about using. My comment was an appeal to be extra thoughtful, or a little flag to think through the connotations of the word and the impact or implications it can have—especially given the context here. That’s all, that’s the argument!
As for opening an interaction, I guess I feel confused by that concern. I think of substantive, honest disagreement as a form of respect and a norm of the Forum. I indicated my uncertainties and was holding space for other possibilities. Maybe I don’t see my comment as opening an interaction in the way you do—I can’t quite say.
(Just a flag that it feels a bit weird to edit your comments after I’d replied to them without flagging the edits you’re making. I am trying to respond to the substance of what you’re saying.)
Yeah, I take the feedback that I could have framed it more as “using this word in this way could come off as derogatory, even if you didn’t intend it that way” and emphasize that I wasn’t making an accusation or assumption. That was my intention, so I’m sorry if it didn’t come across that way.
I usually edit them after I post them because I don’t like how they read to me. But I can see how that would look like I was editing them after your replies. Not sure how I could flag that better.
Well I appreciate you flagging. It wasn’t my intention to demean Alice and I wouldn’t have wanted people to think so.
The claim in the post was “Alice claims she was sick with covid in a foreign country, with only the three Nonlinear cofounders around, but nobody in the house was willing to go out and get her vegan food, so she barely ate for 2 days.”. (Bolding added)
If you look at the chat messages, you’ll see we have screenshots demonstrating that:
1. There was vegan food in the house, which we offered her.
2. I personally went out, while I was sick myself, to buy vegan food for her (mashed potatoes) and cooked it for her and brought it to her.
I would be fine if she told people that she was hungry when she was sick, and she felt sad and stressed. Or that she was hungry but wasn’t interested in any of the food we had in the house and we didn’t get her Burger King.
But I think that there’s a big difference between telling everyone “I didn’t get the food I wanted, but they did get/offer to cook me vegan food, and I told them it was ok!” and “they refused to get me vegan food and I barely ate for 2 days”
I have sympathy for Alice. She was hungry (because of her fighting with a boyfriend [not Drew] in the morning and having a light breakfast) and she was sick. That sucks, and I feel for her. And that’s why I tried (and succeeded) in getting her vegan food.
In summary. “Alice claims she was sick with covid in a foreign country, with only the three Nonlinear cofounders around, but nobody in the house was willing to go out and get her vegan food, so she barely ate for 2 days.”. (Bolding added) This makes us sound like terrible people.
What actually happened: she was sick and hungry, and we offered to cook or bring over the vegan options in the house, then went out and bought and cooked her vegan food. We tried to take care of our sick friend (she wasn’t working for us at the time), and we fed her while she was sick.
Hmmm I guess I don’t consider this to shift me much since your account seems compatible with what ben wrote:
I agree that if Alice said otherwise that could be bad but I’m unsure how much I care if she originally loosely complained about you to friends but has since walked it back. Maybe if she told loads of people and has since walked it back then that’s bad. And I can understand how unfair this feels. But it sort of doesn’t update me on ben being a poor judge since his account was compatible from the get go
edited
I don’t know if this is at the level of moderator intervention, so I’m just going to flag that saying Alice “bitched” about something to her friends feels potentially derogatory or dismissive to me. I know people use the word with different levels of seriousness and with different connotations. In this context, though, it read to me like minimizing the value of what Alice might have said to her friends.
If in fact Alice was mistreated, “bitching” to her friends would be a way of notifying people of a harmful situation—and therefore potentially closer to informing, sharing, or raising serious concerns to her friends.
Regardless of that, I often wonder when I see men use bitch or bitching when describing a woman and her actions whether they’d use the same language to describe the actions of a man. Maybe you would, and maybe I’d read your use of the word here differently then. But I would generally caution anyone to think about the negative connotations those words can have and the sexism they can perpetrate when used to describe women.
Speaking as an advisor to the mod team who ran this past some active mods:
This isn’t something we’d issue a warning for in this context (describing a third party’s actions in a way that doesn’t seem aggressive or dismissive). In the context of a direct attack (e.g. “why are you bitching to us about something that doesn’t matter?”), it could make a comment seem more aggressive and might (weakly) push us toward more substantial action.
*****
Taking my advisor hat off, I generally prefer for the Forum to be less coarse, and I do see “bitching” as gendered (similar to e.g. “pussy”), so on balance I’d rather see “complaining”.
This is relatively minor in the grand scheme of my personal preferences for Forum comments, but I recognize that other people might (justifiably!) be more offended by the word than I am. As a cis male, I’ve seldom been accused of “bitching” about things; I’d guess that certain other Forum users aren’t so lucky.
I’ll change it, it’s kind of a useful word though. As evidenced by being used 2 other times on the forum already.
Not wild about this interaction, glad you raised that you don’t like the word, but are we really doing accusations of sexism based on single words now. sigh.
I think Alice herself has walked back the claim—my point is that I support Alice’s right to complain offhandedly about something but to give a more accurate account when pushed. Do i sometimes complain in company in ways I wouldn’t entirely endorse. Sure. Aren’t we allowed to give loose accounts to friends.
Edit Okay seems like the consensus is this wasn’t accusatory. I’m sorry @pinkfrog, my error. I can be sensitive about this stuff, but that’s not your fault.
I’d be curious to hear why you find it a useful word in this context. Also happy to hear what you didn’t like about my comment, either here or over a message.
None of these words really did what I wanted and I was typing at speed. Was happy to change it if it caused confusion.
It has a whole paragraph of implicit accusation of sexism for use of a relatively commonly used word. If I only used that word about women then that would be bad behaviour. It seems like a lot to assume from a single use. I would have preferred “I read that as derogative did you intend that”, though you are free to do as you wish. I hope you are well.
(Some responses based on the edits you made to your original comment)
To be clear, I didn’t accuse you of sexism in my comment. And I do like the word in certain uses, actually. Like I said in my comment, I know it can be used in different ways and with different connotations.
I wanted to point out that it’s a loaded word that can cause harm if used in certain ways, and you’re using it within a specific, loaded context. I didn’t make a statement on the veracity of Alice’s claims but imagined if they were true (as I said, “if in fact Alice was mistreated”) how it might feel for her to have someone describe her as just bitching about the situation (which could be a potentially hurtful feeling). And as I flagged, I wasn’t sure how you were using it—which means both that I don’t assume it was in a sexist way and that I also didn’t feel clear that it wasn’t in a sexist way.
I consider swear words or words that have a history of derogatory use/use as slurs as words to be extra thoughtful about using. My comment was an appeal to be extra thoughtful, or a little flag to think through the connotations of the word and the impact or implications it can have—especially given the context here. That’s all, that’s the argument!
As for opening an interaction, I guess I feel confused by that concern. I think of substantive, honest disagreement as a form of respect and a norm of the Forum. I indicated my uncertainties and was holding space for other possibilities. Maybe I don’t see my comment as opening an interaction in the way you do—I can’t quite say.
(Just a flag that it feels a bit weird to edit your comments after I’d replied to them without flagging the edits you’re making. I am trying to respond to the substance of what you’re saying.)
Yeah, I take the feedback that I could have framed it more as “using this word in this way could come off as derogatory, even if you didn’t intend it that way” and emphasize that I wasn’t making an accusation or assumption. That was my intention, so I’m sorry if it didn’t come across that way.
I usually edit them after I post them because I don’t like how they read to me. But I can see how that would look like I was editing them after your replies. Not sure how I could flag that better.
Well I appreciate you flagging. It wasn’t my intention to demean Alice and I wouldn’t have wanted people to think so.
I’ll let someone else judge. To me it felt like an accusation that my use of the word was sexist.
If others don’t think so I’m happy to defer.
The claim in the post was “Alice claims she was sick with covid in a foreign country, with only the three Nonlinear cofounders around, but nobody in the house was willing to go out and get her vegan food, so she barely ate for 2 days.”. (Bolding added)
If you look at the chat messages, you’ll see we have screenshots demonstrating that:
1. There was vegan food in the house, which we offered her.
2. I personally went out, while I was sick myself, to buy vegan food for her (mashed potatoes) and cooked it for her and brought it to her.
I would be fine if she told people that she was hungry when she was sick, and she felt sad and stressed. Or that she was hungry but wasn’t interested in any of the food we had in the house and we didn’t get her Burger King.
But I think that there’s a big difference between telling everyone “I didn’t get the food I wanted, but they did get/offer to cook me vegan food, and I told them it was ok!” and “they refused to get me vegan food and I barely ate for 2 days”
I have sympathy for Alice. She was hungry (because of her fighting with a boyfriend [not Drew] in the morning and having a light breakfast) and she was sick. That sucks, and I feel for her. And that’s why I tried (and succeeded) in getting her vegan food.
In summary. “Alice claims she was sick with covid in a foreign country, with only the three Nonlinear cofounders around, but nobody in the house was willing to go out and get her vegan food, so she barely ate for 2 days.”. (Bolding added) This makes us sound like terrible people.
What actually happened: she was sick and hungry, and we offered to cook or bring over the vegan options in the house, then went out and bought and cooked her vegan food. We tried to take care of our sick friend (she wasn’t working for us at the time), and we fed her while she was sick.
Downvoting because you’ve already posted this exact comment several times in this thread. Just post it once and link to it.