I went vegan for about 3 months, but found it was often a really large part of my thought process for the day “will I have enough to eat” “what will I eat”. I imagine I could get it to a stable place in 6 − 12 months of it being a priority, but that focus seems better used elsewhere, even if animals are my top focus.
If you find veganism easy or fulfilling, I would recommend it. But I’m not sure I’d recommend it in general, other than being predictive of moral seriousness (though it’s not clear which way causation goes there).
I found going vegan very difficult so I relate to your experience but I think your argument for it not actually being the right thing for you to do on altruistic grounds is weak. It’s worth introspecting on the extent to which “focusing” on getting used to veganism entails a meaningful trade off with doing good. I think people’s lives and schedules have a lot more slack in them than we like to admit, and I think far from all of the time/energy put into being vegan would have otherwise been spent on altruism. Meanwhile, once you’re used to being vegan, you’re used to it forever. Is the amount of time/energy you’d need to invest (discounted for the fact that likely you wouldn’t otherwise be spending this all on altruism) not worth it to unlock the benefits for animals of being vegan for the rest of your life?
Lastly, this argument doesn’t account for the extent to which being vegan will actually fuel your altruism. Acting in accordance with your values is fulfilling in a way that can fuel you. Plus, your commitment to the belief that ‘helping animals should be a top priority’ will likely be stronger if your actions are in alignment with that belief, given our tendency to change our beliefs to be in harmony with our actions, reducing cognitive dissonance. I haven’t articulated this last point well, but I think it’s an important one. See Joey’s post on this concept here: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/DBcDZJhTDgig9QNHR/altruism-sharpens-altruism
If you’re open to giving veganism a go again I’m always happy to share tips or just lend you my ear as someone who tried for years and found it very hard :)
Is the amount of time/energy you’d need to invest (discounted for the fact that likely you wouldn’t otherwise be spending this all on altruism) not worth it to unlock the benefits for animals of being vegan for the rest of your life?
This argument doesn’t hold as strongly as you think—because I can decide to be vegan later, so it’s more like “benefits for animal until being vegan becomes a priority”. And also perhaps animal suffering falls at some future time.
And for me it’s less about energy and more about focus. I don’t feel like I get to pick too many things to focus on in any weak, usually 1-2 (eg this week I’m mainly focusing on “getting work done” and “going to bed one time”). Veganism felt like it took up .2-1 of a slot for most of the time I did it. So yeah, I don’t think it was worth it.
I think the fuelling activism point is kind of good—I did find it easier to talk about animals when I knew I was taking pains to avoid them.
But there is a deeper kind of activism I might want to fuel, that of trying to do the most effective thing. It did feel a bit incongruous to spend mine and others time to avoid eating animals while my company wasn’t at the point I wanted it to be. And most of my impact will probably be through my work. Someone pointed out that this was inconsistent and I think they were right.
At some point veganism might be a top priority for me, but I’m not convinced it is now.
While I sympathize with the fact that going vegan is difficult for some, I do want to push back on the idea that the focus spent on adhering to a plant-based diet would be better spent elsewhere “if animals are [your] top focus.”
Broadly, the discussion around plant-based/vegan diets avoids the signal value of the dietary and lifestyle choices. If my top focus is non-human animals[1], then it seems to track pretty clearly to me that persons will take me less seriously if I do not make substantial lifestyle changes that indicate this. Whether or not this is justified rationally on part of the others is not the most important point,[2] but it remains the point that the populace at large do disregard the views of perceived hypocrites very heavily. I do not think it is a huge stretch to suggest that such a blow to credibility may impede one’s work, at least in some circumstances.
With that in mind, persons that are very dedicated to a particular cause—in this case advocacy for nonhuman animals—probably ought to seriously consider the signal they send to others with their lifestyle choices.
I myself think hypocrisy in lifestyle choices is not that big of a deal; the climate activist that owns a gas guzzler or the longtermist who does not have kids is no less right or wrong about the issue at stake for having not done what is probably required of them within their own worldview. Similarly, the animal activist who cannot easily give up meat or dairy is no less right or wrong about the proposition that animal suffering is bad and ought to be addressed.
For me, it felt like the cost of being vegan was 5 − 10 hours of attention each week. I think that would have fallen over time, but when I went on holiday it was much of what I was thinking about every meal and indeed around meals—will I be hungry etc etc. If readers are people who find it easier to cook and incorporate new processes then maybe it’s a great idea. I don’t, so it felt pretty costly to me.
I went vegan for about 3 months, but found it was often a really large part of my thought process for the day “will I have enough to eat” “what will I eat”. I imagine I could get it to a stable place in 6 − 12 months of it being a priority, but that focus seems better used elsewhere, even if animals are my top focus.
If you find veganism easy or fulfilling, I would recommend it. But I’m not sure I’d recommend it in general, other than being predictive of moral seriousness (though it’s not clear which way causation goes there).
I found going vegan very difficult so I relate to your experience but I think your argument for it not actually being the right thing for you to do on altruistic grounds is weak. It’s worth introspecting on the extent to which “focusing” on getting used to veganism entails a meaningful trade off with doing good. I think people’s lives and schedules have a lot more slack in them than we like to admit, and I think far from all of the time/energy put into being vegan would have otherwise been spent on altruism. Meanwhile, once you’re used to being vegan, you’re used to it forever. Is the amount of time/energy you’d need to invest (discounted for the fact that likely you wouldn’t otherwise be spending this all on altruism) not worth it to unlock the benefits for animals of being vegan for the rest of your life?
Lastly, this argument doesn’t account for the extent to which being vegan will actually fuel your altruism. Acting in accordance with your values is fulfilling in a way that can fuel you. Plus, your commitment to the belief that ‘helping animals should be a top priority’ will likely be stronger if your actions are in alignment with that belief, given our tendency to change our beliefs to be in harmony with our actions, reducing cognitive dissonance. I haven’t articulated this last point well, but I think it’s an important one. See Joey’s post on this concept here: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/DBcDZJhTDgig9QNHR/altruism-sharpens-altruism
If you’re open to giving veganism a go again I’m always happy to share tips or just lend you my ear as someone who tried for years and found it very hard :)
This argument doesn’t hold as strongly as you think—because I can decide to be vegan later, so it’s more like “benefits for animal until being vegan becomes a priority”. And also perhaps animal suffering falls at some future time.
And for me it’s less about energy and more about focus. I don’t feel like I get to pick too many things to focus on in any weak, usually 1-2 (eg this week I’m mainly focusing on “getting work done” and “going to bed one time”). Veganism felt like it took up .2-1 of a slot for most of the time I did it. So yeah, I don’t think it was worth it.
I think the fuelling activism point is kind of good—I did find it easier to talk about animals when I knew I was taking pains to avoid them.
But there is a deeper kind of activism I might want to fuel, that of trying to do the most effective thing. It did feel a bit incongruous to spend mine and others time to avoid eating animals while my company wasn’t at the point I wanted it to be. And most of my impact will probably be through my work. Someone pointed out that this was inconsistent and I think they were right.
At some point veganism might be a top priority for me, but I’m not convinced it is now.
While I sympathize with the fact that going vegan is difficult for some, I do want to push back on the idea that the focus spent on adhering to a plant-based diet would be better spent elsewhere “if animals are [your] top focus.”
Broadly, the discussion around plant-based/vegan diets avoids the signal value of the dietary and lifestyle choices. If my top focus is non-human animals[1], then it seems to track pretty clearly to me that persons will take me less seriously if I do not make substantial lifestyle changes that indicate this. Whether or not this is justified rationally on part of the others is not the most important point,[2] but it remains the point that the populace at large do disregard the views of perceived hypocrites very heavily. I do not think it is a huge stretch to suggest that such a blow to credibility may impede one’s work, at least in some circumstances.
With that in mind, persons that are very dedicated to a particular cause—in this case advocacy for nonhuman animals—probably ought to seriously consider the signal they send to others with their lifestyle choices.
Broadly, it actually is.
I myself think hypocrisy in lifestyle choices is not that big of a deal; the climate activist that owns a gas guzzler or the longtermist who does not have kids is no less right or wrong about the issue at stake for having not done what is probably required of them within their own worldview. Similarly, the animal activist who cannot easily give up meat or dairy is no less right or wrong about the proposition that animal suffering is bad and ought to be addressed.
Okay but what is that signal value?
For me, it felt like the cost of being vegan was 5 − 10 hours of attention each week. I think that would have fallen over time, but when I went on holiday it was much of what I was thinking about every meal and indeed around meals—will I be hungry etc etc. If readers are people who find it easier to cook and incorporate new processes then maybe it’s a great idea. I don’t, so it felt pretty costly to me.
I doubt the signal value is worth more that that.