Defenders of EA chide critics for not setting up organizations to evaluate potential systemic changes and for their vague critiques of capitalism. They ignore the entire academic discipline of Social Movement Studies, which focuses on the processes and dynamics of large-scale social change as well as vast quantities of analysis by social movements themselves. The failure within EA to even acknowledge the existence of this evidence, let alone engage with it, suggests status-quo bias.
I have never heard of this field, as have (I suspect) many of your readers. Because of this, if you aim to persuade EAs I think you would do well by following Noah Smith’s “Two Paper Rule” here. Can you recommend some papers that are good exemplars of the “vast quantities of analysis” here?
If you want me to read the vast literature, cite me two papers that are exemplars and paragons of that literature. Foundational papers, key recent innovations—whatever you like (but no review papers or summaries). Just two. I will read them.
Edit: Upon consideration I think that these papers are more helpful for those already in the field of sociology, and less useful for EAs—specifically in the context of Ben’s question. I do believe they are especially useful texts in thinking about social movements and conceptualizing them holistically, and from there drawing insights and connecting these to EA as a social movement.
If I could reply to the two papers question—social movement theory is a subdiscipline of sociology that EA could draw from and contribute to. These aren’t directly related to EA but are representative of the literature.
The two papers:
1) An article by Bruce Fireman and WA Gamson called “Utilitarian logic in the resource mobilization perspective” which is absolutely brilliant, it breaks down why social movement theory cannot cut and paste from neoclassical economic theory as was done in the 70s and 80s (see: Mancur Olson’s The Logic Of Collective Action). It provides a rationale for using a sociological framework to consider social movements, something that I think is often discovered in EA/rationalist community even though literature exists.
At some point I will compile a better list for newcomers, and include more recent scholarship, regarding internet-age movements and with insights more directly related to EA (if I find them). A generic social movement theory reader might be a good starting point in the interim. I am also planning on writing a few posts about some observations I have drawn from the literature that are relevant to the EA movement.
Timothy—I haven’t read your paper yet but I hope to do so soon, it looks very interesting.
I think what we are looking for is work that is actually relevant/useful for effective altruism.This is just meta-commentary on what goes on within SMS.
It’s 300 pages long. Even restricting to the theory section, that’s 60 pages, with the first article also being 60 pages long. Could be useful but still should be shorter for really meeting the “two paper rule”. And the difference between a paper and a book is not just length, it’s organization. It’s much easier to skim a paper (abstract, conclusion, etc) than a book.
Looking at what he says in the theoretical section—the talk of rationality/irrationality seems directly related to what Hanson has written on signaling theory and what Scott Alexander has written about tribalism. They are covering the same ground, this is not a topic that EAs have been ignoring. Arguably Hanson/Alexander have a more up-to-date and accurate view.
Skimming other parts of this section, I’m not seeing anything with obvious implications for EA. There is a lot of common sense that should be apparent to anyone, and lots of classification and description, but I don’t see much about actionable guidance for success. Though part of the problem is that it’s about protest movements, which EA is not.
Not to mention—it’s over half a century old, and it’s about something that took place 130 years ago. A lot has changed since then: different norms, business practices, laws, policies, communication, media. Scholarship that doesn’t take these things into account is fighting an uphill battle to be useful to current actors.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply—I agree that these are not directly related to EA and have edited to clarify that. I also agree that they are older and I was trying to give some exemplars in the discipline, not necessarily the relevance to EA. As to your comment about it being older, and about old examples—I agree, I looked back and realised my comment above didn’t acknowledge that, although I meant it to so I’ve edited to update. Apologies for the lack of clarity there.
Looking at what he says in the theoretical section—the talk of rationality/irrationality seems directly related to what Hanson has written on signaling theory and what Scott Alexander has written about tribalism. They are covering the same ground, this is not a topic that EAs have been ignoring. Arguably Hanson/Alexander have a more up-to-date and accurate view.
I didn’t refer to precise chapters, my apologies (that has also been updated, and thank you for the link). The most relevant sections are Chapter 10 and 11 on the organization of protests, specifically his discussions of membership and leadership-organized protests, more so than the rationality part (Chapter 9). I also agree that a paper would be more accessible—I will try to find some in the future when I have some time.
Also, could you expand on the signaling theory part and its link to rationality?
Finally, and this is a point I probably will not adequately express here, I think there is some use to older texts and scholarship if not for rapid adoption but from an academic standpoint. I find that well-written, logical texts often help me consider a separate problem with more clarity than recent scholarship that is about the same empirical topic. (On a more pragmatic note, my familiarity with older texts is because I’ve researched older social movements where these texts were useful, but I will be doing detailed research in the future on more recent scholarship). This is not time-efficient for people who aren’t already in the field, so perhaps the recommendations above were not accesible enough.
Oh you don’t need to apologize. All good. Looking forward to more reading suggestions.
Hanson’s book Elephant In The Brain is probably useful here for explaining why some people behave more rationally (or seem to behave more rationally) than others. When they join a protest, adopt its symbology and beliefs, that’s a very tribal sort of project, so it seems very amenable to this kind of analysis (though Hanson seems to think that his analysis applies to pretty much everything in the world). In the context of social movements it lets us talk about them as irrational actors while still having a scientific, predictive approach rather than telling just-so-stories.
In this review, the writer notes some implications for how to build the EA movement and institutions. I bet you could also apply this stuff to the way that radical activists and academics respond to EA.
But I say this speculatively because I haven’t really read the book, I just know the general thrust.
1) The discussions of rationality/irrationality in the links I cited don’t consider irrational actors at all, but rather to be motivated by a set of understandable and even rational beliefs and norms. Fireman and Gamson are critiquing the “irrational actor in social movement” paradigm. Their behavior is “irrational” (in the rationalist sense).
2) From the relevant portion of the article, it appears that this concern with rationality/irrationality is more about how to convince newcomers to join the movement. However, the main contribution of social movement theory is to improving the existing movement and the movement’s existing resources more effectively. And for that, I think there is a lot that the literature can contribute, even older literature because the medium of communicaton (Internet) hasn’t fundamentally changed the core of a social movement. Instead we can understand as altering the amount and form of the resources. For example, we can attract more resources and members through the internet, but local EA groups are still necessary to create a sense of personal community, provide grounds for collaboration and prevent drift out of the movement.
Thanks for your comment. Apologies for delayed reply.
Apologies is this sounds a bit snide but...invoking this ‘two paper rule’ is exactly the kind of faux-smart heuristic that EA’s critics have a problem with. It tries to take short-cuts to working out what is the best thing to do and even to justify them as themselves effective. But I think this mis-understands the holistic and historically extended nature of worldviews/movements/anlayses.
Social movement studies happens to exist as a self-identified field. That EA’s haven’t heard of it may say more about them than about the field. But it has a much longer and broader history in other disciplines and outside formal academia.
So, being slightly facetious, I would say that you should read Marx’s Capital, Vol 1. and, maybe, Lenin’s ‘Imperialism: the highest stage of capitalism’ - even if some of the theoretical and empirical details are wrong or outdated, the basic analyses retain a lot of force and are undoubtedly key texts in the relevant social movements.
Downvoted for not being at least two of true, necessary or kind. If you’re going to be snide, I think you should do a much better job of defending your claims rather than merely gesturing at a vague appeal to “holistic and historically extended nature.”
You’ve left zero pointers to the justifications for your beliefs that could be followed by a good-faith interlocutor in under ~20h of reading. Nor have you made an actual case for why a 20-hour investment is required for someone to even be qualified to dismiss the field (an incredible claim given the number of scholars who are willing to engage with arguments based on far less than 20 hours of background reading).
Your comment could be rewritten mutatis mutandis with “scientology” instead of “social movement studies,” with practically no change the argument structure. I think an argument for why a field is worth looking into should strive for more rigor and fewer vaguely insulting pot-shots.
(EDIT: ps, I’m not the downvoter on your other two responses. Wish they’d explained.)
I think the issue is maybe not really about doing any particular reading or research, but about worldviews.
One does not usually get ‘converted’ to socialism or whatever simply by reading a couple of smart articles on the issue. Nor would one necessarily be persuaded of the relevance of social movement studies specifically or anything else if one was constitutionally disinclined to think it worthwhile.
A worldview is not just something we rationally choose based on evidence. It is a complex function of upbringing, education, experience, moral commitments and who knows what other combination of emotional, unconscious or whatever factors. We
EAs seem disinclined to recognise that they do in fact have such a worldview and that it plays a big role in how they think about doing good. Givewell does have some important posts about its ‘worldview characteristics’ but seems to underplay the extent to which these views are controversial and thoroughly intertwined with its understanding of altruism.
With respect to social movement studies, I think the underlying worldview characteristic is the idea that the most significant social changes usually come about by way of more or less organised collective efforts, rather than isolated individual efforts. The field investigates how these organised efforts work.
But if you just don’t believe that social movements are the key drivers of change in human history, I don’t think there are any ‘2 papers’ that will persuade you!
This is true as far as it goes, but I think that many EAs, including me, would endorse the idea that “social movements are the [or at least a] key drivers of change in human history.” It seems perverse to assume otherwise on a forum whose entire point is to help the progress of a social movement that claims to e.g. help participants have 100x more positive impact in the world.
More generally, it’s true that your chance of convincing “constitutionally disinclined” people with two papers is low. But your chance is zero of convincing anyone with either (1) a bare assertion that there’s some good stuff there somewhere, or (2) the claim that they will understand you after spending 20 hours reading some very long books.
Also, I think your chance of convincing non-constitutionally-disinclined people with the right two papers is higher than you think. Although you’re correct that two papers directly arguing “you should use paradigm x instead of paradigm y” may not be super helpful, two pointers to “here are some interesting conclusions that you’ll come to if you apply paradigm x” can easily be enough to pique someone’s interest.
I have never heard of this field, as have (I suspect) many of your readers. Because of this, if you aim to persuade EAs I think you would do well by following Noah Smith’s “Two Paper Rule” here. Can you recommend some papers that are good exemplars of the “vast quantities of analysis” here?
Edit: Upon consideration I think that these papers are more helpful for those already in the field of sociology, and less useful for EAs—specifically in the context of Ben’s question. I do believe they are especially useful texts in thinking about social movements and conceptualizing them holistically, and from there drawing insights and connecting these to EA as a social movement.
If I could reply to the two papers question—social movement theory is a subdiscipline of sociology that EA could draw from and contribute to. These aren’t directly related to EA but are representative of the literature.
The two papers:
1) An article by Bruce Fireman and WA Gamson called “Utilitarian logic in the resource mobilization perspective” which is absolutely brilliant, it breaks down why social movement theory cannot cut and paste from neoclassical economic theory as was done in the 70s and 80s (see: Mancur Olson’s The Logic Of Collective Action). It provides a rationale for using a sociological framework to consider social movements, something that I think is often discovered in EA/rationalist community even though literature exists.
2) Chapter 10 and 11 - Michael Schwartz’s Radical Protest and Social Structure: The Southern Farmers’ Alliance and Cotton Tenancy, 1880-1890
At some point I will compile a better list for newcomers, and include more recent scholarship, regarding internet-age movements and with insights more directly related to EA (if I find them). A generic social movement theory reader might be a good starting point in the interim. I am also planning on writing a few posts about some observations I have drawn from the literature that are relevant to the EA movement.
Timothy—I haven’t read your paper yet but I hope to do so soon, it looks very interesting.
I think what we are looking for is work that is actually relevant/useful for effective altruism. This is just meta-commentary on what goes on within SMS.
Here’s an accessible link: http://library1.org/_ads/7AD2E4176A3FF00C05EA7802BBD95A04
It’s 300 pages long. Even restricting to the theory section, that’s 60 pages, with the first article also being 60 pages long. Could be useful but still should be shorter for really meeting the “two paper rule”. And the difference between a paper and a book is not just length, it’s organization. It’s much easier to skim a paper (abstract, conclusion, etc) than a book.
Looking at what he says in the theoretical section—the talk of rationality/irrationality seems directly related to what Hanson has written on signaling theory and what Scott Alexander has written about tribalism. They are covering the same ground, this is not a topic that EAs have been ignoring. Arguably Hanson/Alexander have a more up-to-date and accurate view.
Skimming other parts of this section, I’m not seeing anything with obvious implications for EA. There is a lot of common sense that should be apparent to anyone, and lots of classification and description, but I don’t see much about actionable guidance for success. Though part of the problem is that it’s about protest movements, which EA is not.
Not to mention—it’s over half a century old, and it’s about something that took place 130 years ago. A lot has changed since then: different norms, business practices, laws, policies, communication, media. Scholarship that doesn’t take these things into account is fighting an uphill battle to be useful to current actors.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply—I agree that these are not directly related to EA and have edited to clarify that. I also agree that they are older and I was trying to give some exemplars in the discipline, not necessarily the relevance to EA. As to your comment about it being older, and about old examples—I agree, I looked back and realised my comment above didn’t acknowledge that, although I meant it to so I’ve edited to update. Apologies for the lack of clarity there.
I didn’t refer to precise chapters, my apologies (that has also been updated, and thank you for the link). The most relevant sections are Chapter 10 and 11 on the organization of protests, specifically his discussions of membership and leadership-organized protests, more so than the rationality part (Chapter 9). I also agree that a paper would be more accessible—I will try to find some in the future when I have some time.
Also, could you expand on the signaling theory part and its link to rationality?
Finally, and this is a point I probably will not adequately express here, I think there is some use to older texts and scholarship if not for rapid adoption but from an academic standpoint. I find that well-written, logical texts often help me consider a separate problem with more clarity than recent scholarship that is about the same empirical topic. (On a more pragmatic note, my familiarity with older texts is because I’ve researched older social movements where these texts were useful, but I will be doing detailed research in the future on more recent scholarship). This is not time-efficient for people who aren’t already in the field, so perhaps the recommendations above were not accesible enough.
Oh you don’t need to apologize. All good. Looking forward to more reading suggestions.
Hanson’s book Elephant In The Brain is probably useful here for explaining why some people behave more rationally (or seem to behave more rationally) than others. When they join a protest, adopt its symbology and beliefs, that’s a very tribal sort of project, so it seems very amenable to this kind of analysis (though Hanson seems to think that his analysis applies to pretty much everything in the world). In the context of social movements it lets us talk about them as irrational actors while still having a scientific, predictive approach rather than telling just-so-stories.
In this review, the writer notes some implications for how to build the EA movement and institutions. I bet you could also apply this stuff to the way that radical activists and academics respond to EA.
But I say this speculatively because I haven’t really read the book, I just know the general thrust.
Two points:
1) The discussions of rationality/irrationality in the links I cited don’t consider irrational actors at all, but rather to be motivated by a set of understandable and even rational beliefs and norms. Fireman and Gamson are critiquing the “irrational actor in social movement” paradigm. Their behavior is “irrational” (in the rationalist sense).
2) From the relevant portion of the article, it appears that this concern with rationality/irrationality is more about how to convince newcomers to join the movement. However, the main contribution of social movement theory is to improving the existing movement and the movement’s existing resources more effectively. And for that, I think there is a lot that the literature can contribute, even older literature because the medium of communicaton (Internet) hasn’t fundamentally changed the core of a social movement. Instead we can understand as altering the amount and form of the resources. For example, we can attract more resources and members through the internet, but local EA groups are still necessary to create a sense of personal community, provide grounds for collaboration and prevent drift out of the movement.
Thanks for your comment. Apologies for delayed reply.
Apologies is this sounds a bit snide but...invoking this ‘two paper rule’ is exactly the kind of faux-smart heuristic that EA’s critics have a problem with. It tries to take short-cuts to working out what is the best thing to do and even to justify them as themselves effective. But I think this mis-understands the holistic and historically extended nature of worldviews/movements/anlayses.
Social movement studies happens to exist as a self-identified field. That EA’s haven’t heard of it may say more about them than about the field. But it has a much longer and broader history in other disciplines and outside formal academia.
So, being slightly facetious, I would say that you should read Marx’s Capital, Vol 1. and, maybe, Lenin’s ‘Imperialism: the highest stage of capitalism’ - even if some of the theoretical and empirical details are wrong or outdated, the basic analyses retain a lot of force and are undoubtedly key texts in the relevant social movements.
Downvoted for not being at least two of true, necessary or kind. If you’re going to be snide, I think you should do a much better job of defending your claims rather than merely gesturing at a vague appeal to “holistic and historically extended nature.”
You’ve left zero pointers to the justifications for your beliefs that could be followed by a good-faith interlocutor in under ~20h of reading. Nor have you made an actual case for why a 20-hour investment is required for someone to even be qualified to dismiss the field (an incredible claim given the number of scholars who are willing to engage with arguments based on far less than 20 hours of background reading).
Your comment could be rewritten mutatis mutandis with “scientology” instead of “social movement studies,” with practically no change the argument structure. I think an argument for why a field is worth looking into should strive for more rigor and fewer vaguely insulting pot-shots.
(EDIT: ps, I’m not the downvoter on your other two responses. Wish they’d explained.)
I’m back for some reason!
Here’s my attempt at non-snide answer.
I think the issue is maybe not really about doing any particular reading or research, but about worldviews.
One does not usually get ‘converted’ to socialism or whatever simply by reading a couple of smart articles on the issue. Nor would one necessarily be persuaded of the relevance of social movement studies specifically or anything else if one was constitutionally disinclined to think it worthwhile.
A worldview is not just something we rationally choose based on evidence. It is a complex function of upbringing, education, experience, moral commitments and who knows what other combination of emotional, unconscious or whatever factors. We
EAs seem disinclined to recognise that they do in fact have such a worldview and that it plays a big role in how they think about doing good. Givewell does have some important posts about its ‘worldview characteristics’ but seems to underplay the extent to which these views are controversial and thoroughly intertwined with its understanding of altruism.
With respect to social movement studies, I think the underlying worldview characteristic is the idea that the most significant social changes usually come about by way of more or less organised collective efforts, rather than isolated individual efforts. The field investigates how these organised efforts work.
But if you just don’t believe that social movements are the key drivers of change in human history, I don’t think there are any ‘2 papers’ that will persuade you!
This is true as far as it goes, but I think that many EAs, including me, would endorse the idea that “social movements are the [or at least a] key drivers of change in human history.” It seems perverse to assume otherwise on a forum whose entire point is to help the progress of a social movement that claims to e.g. help participants have 100x more positive impact in the world.
More generally, it’s true that your chance of convincing “constitutionally disinclined” people with two papers is low. But your chance is zero of convincing anyone with either (1) a bare assertion that there’s some good stuff there somewhere, or (2) the claim that they will understand you after spending 20 hours reading some very long books.
Also, I think your chance of convincing non-constitutionally-disinclined people with the right two papers is higher than you think. Although you’re correct that two papers directly arguing “you should use paradigm x instead of paradigm y” may not be super helpful, two pointers to “here are some interesting conclusions that you’ll come to if you apply paradigm x” can easily be enough to pique someone’s interest.