Hey huw—I’m very grateful that you took the time to volunteer at Manifest. I hope that you overall enjoyed your time at the festival; either way, thanks for the feedback.
I don’t love that some guests we invited may turn away bright, ambitious, and especially kind folks like yourself; I write a bit more about this here. I think the opposite is true as well, though, where left-leaning views turn away some of the most awesome up-and-coming folks. My subjective guess is that EA as a whole is far more likely to suffer from the latter failure mode.
In any case, I expect EAGs to represent more of an official EA party line with respect to who they include or exclude, and encourage you to look there if you don’t find Manifest to your tastes. One of the explicit tenets of Manifest that distinguishes it from an EAG is that we are default-open rather than default-closed; there’s no application process where we screen attendees to conform to a particular mold.
Manifest is cool and open; EA is snooty and closed.
Manfiest values free discourse; EA is stifling.
EAG and Manifest are equally controversial because EA has leftists and Manifest has rightists.
Manifest is just getting flak from the left because Manifest has some right-leaning people.
Sure some bright, ambitious, kind people turn away, but that’s just because they’re too leftist and an equally large amount of bright, ambitious, kind people would bounce off if Manifest were more leftist as well.
Turning away people is never the right thing to do unless they pose a physical threat.
Manifest faces trade-offs and these trade-offs go in equal directions.
I think this response is a false equivalence and feels dismissive of the concerns being expressed.
My issue is not that I’m leftist and don’t like right-wing opinions and just want to toe the “party line”. I am actually quite moderate, attend right-wing conferences, and share a lot of misgivings with left-wing culture + cancel culture + progressives.
My issue is that I don’t like having platformed speakers who think that trans people are mentally ill, that black professionals are easily dismissed affirmative action hires (or worse: animals). I don’t like cancel culture but I do think there needs to be some sort of “line” established of acceptable conduct and I think this goes way beyond right vs. left and into something very dark and different.
I think this comment does a really bad job of interpreting Austin in good faith. You are putting words in his mouth, rewriting the tone and substance of his comment so that it is much more contentious than what he actually expressed. Austin did not claim:
that Manifest is cooler or less snooty than EA
that EA and Manifest are equally controversial
that turning people away is never the right thing to do (baring a physical threat)
I think it is pretty poor form to read someone’s comment in such a hostile way and then attribute views to them they didn’t express.
I’d be curious to hear from @Austin some thoughts on where you think the line of acceptable conduct is? (Though I know it’s really tricky to specify, as argued here.)
Mm, for example, I think using the word “fag” in conversation is somewhat past the line; I don’t see why that kind of epithet would need to be used at Manifest, and hope that I would have spoken out against that kind of behavior if I had witnessed it. (I’m naturally not a very confrontational person, fwiw).
I don’t remember any instances or interactions throughout Manifest that I witnessed which got close to the line; it’s possible it didn’t happen in front of me, because of my status as an organizer, but I think this was reflective of the vast majority of attendee experiences. In the feedback form, two commenters described interactions that feel past the line to me (which I detail here).
❤️ I do wanna add that every interaction I had with you, Rachel, Saul, and all staff & volunteers was overwhelmingly positive, and I’d love to hang again IRL :) Were it not for the issue at hand, I would’ve also rated Manifest an 8–9 on my feedback form, you put on one hell of an event! I also appreciate your openness to feedback; there’s no way I would’ve posted publicly under my real name if I felt like I would get any grief or repercussions for it—that’s rare. (I don’t think I have much else persuasive to say on the main topic)
There have been a lot of EAGs with a lot of attendees, so I think it’s reasonable to ask for specific support for this proposition:
I think the opposite is true as well, though, where left-leaning views turn away some of the most awesome up-and-coming folks. My subjective guess is that EA as a whole is far more likely to suffer from the latter failure mode.
Which specific events and/or attendees at past EAGs have—or would reasonably be expected to—“turn away some of the most awesome up-and-coming folks”?
I have heard from many conversatives (and some grey tribe people) over the years that they feel very unwelcome at EA events (which is not very surprising, given quotes in the OP which expresses horror at a conference that might be 50% republicans, though I understand that might be more of a US/non-US cultural misunderstanding).
I don’t pay that much attention to which speakers go to EAG, so I am less sure about speakers, but there have been a bunch of radical-leftist animal rights people at various conferences that have been cited to me many times as something that made very promising young people substantially less likely to attend (I don’t want to dox the relevant attendees here, but would be happy to DM you some names if you want).
“there have been a bunch of radical-leftist animal rights people at various conferences that have been cited to me many times as something that made very promising young people substantially less likely to attend (I don’t want to dox the relevant attendees here, but would be happy to DM you some names if you want).”
I’m curious about the type of behaviour rather than the names of the people.
As an example of something that I think causes people to have this reaction, DxE coordinated and tried to stage a protest at the EA Global I organized in 2015, because we served some meat at the event. DxE also staged a protest at another CFAR event that I helped organize in 2016. Their protests at the time consisted of disruptively blocking access to the food and screaming very loudly (sometimes with a megaphone) at the people trying to get food about how they are evil (everyone gets to hear this, though it’s directed at the people who eat meat) until they get escorted out by security.
(Also, to be clear on my position, I think Wayne Hsiung, head of DxE is a pretty terrible person with a history of disruption and advocating for pretty extreme bad things in my books, and I still think it would be good for him to be invited to Manifest, especially if he would debate his positions with someone, and he commits to not staging some kind of disruptive protest)
Thanks; this is helpful. It does seem reasonable that at least certain “radical-leftist animal rights people” would create an unwelcoming environment for many moderates and conservatives (and probably others too).
I am more hesitant to deny people admission to an event based on their ideological views (as long as they are fairly well-behaved) than I am to decide not to give them a spot on the agenda or “special guest” status. For example, aggressive proselytism of uninterested and unwilling people is annoying, whether the offender is preaching religion, politics, animal rights, operating-system preference, or sports fandom. I would deny admission for a history of that kind of behavior, but I would view it as application of a viewpoint-neutral conduct rule. Even the First Amendment doesn’t broadly grant people the right to aggressively push their views on an unwilling listener.
I don’t think it’s a function of specific events or speakers or attendees at an EAG, and more of like, a general sense that interesting and talented young folks no longer cite EA as a thing they support. I feel like Bentham’s Bulldog is almost the exception to that proves the rule. This is super vibes-based though, and I’m curious if others in the community agree or disagree with this take.
When it comes to smart and many of the very smartest young people, the influence of Effective Altruism on their thought is radically underreported and underrepresented.
Hey huw—I’m very grateful that you took the time to volunteer at Manifest. I hope that you overall enjoyed your time at the festival; either way, thanks for the feedback.
I don’t love that some guests we invited may turn away bright, ambitious, and especially kind folks like yourself; I write a bit more about this here. I think the opposite is true as well, though, where left-leaning views turn away some of the most awesome up-and-coming folks. My subjective guess is that EA as a whole is far more likely to suffer from the latter failure mode.
In any case, I expect EAGs to represent more of an official EA party line with respect to who they include or exclude, and encourage you to look there if you don’t find Manifest to your tastes. One of the explicit tenets of Manifest that distinguishes it from an EAG is that we are default-open rather than default-closed; there’s no application process where we screen attendees to conform to a particular mold.
Here’s how I interpret your response:
Manifest is cool and open; EA is snooty and closed.
Manfiest values free discourse; EA is stifling.
EAG and Manifest are equally controversial because EA has leftists and Manifest has rightists.
Manifest is just getting flak from the left because Manifest has some right-leaning people.
Sure some bright, ambitious, kind people turn away, but that’s just because they’re too leftist and an equally large amount of bright, ambitious, kind people would bounce off if Manifest were more leftist as well.
Turning away people is never the right thing to do unless they pose a physical threat.
Manifest faces trade-offs and these trade-offs go in equal directions.
I think this response is a false equivalence and feels dismissive of the concerns being expressed.
My issue is not that I’m leftist and don’t like right-wing opinions and just want to toe the “party line”. I am actually quite moderate, attend right-wing conferences, and share a lot of misgivings with left-wing culture + cancel culture + progressives.
My issue is that I don’t like having platformed speakers who think that trans people are mentally ill, that black professionals are easily dismissed affirmative action hires (or worse: animals). I don’t like cancel culture but I do think there needs to be some sort of “line” established of acceptable conduct and I think this goes way beyond right vs. left and into something very dark and different.
I think this comment does a really bad job of interpreting Austin in good faith. You are putting words in his mouth, rewriting the tone and substance of his comment so that it is much more contentious than what he actually expressed. Austin did not claim:
that Manifest is cooler or less snooty than EA
that EA and Manifest are equally controversial
that turning people away is never the right thing to do (baring a physical threat)
I think it is pretty poor form to read someone’s comment in such a hostile way and then attribute views to them they didn’t express.
I’d be curious to hear from @Austin some thoughts on where you think the line of acceptable conduct is? (Though I know it’s really tricky to specify, as argued here.)
Mm, for example, I think using the word “fag” in conversation is somewhat past the line; I don’t see why that kind of epithet would need to be used at Manifest, and hope that I would have spoken out against that kind of behavior if I had witnessed it. (I’m naturally not a very confrontational person, fwiw).
I don’t remember any instances or interactions throughout Manifest that I witnessed which got close to the line; it’s possible it didn’t happen in front of me, because of my status as an organizer, but I think this was reflective of the vast majority of attendee experiences. In the feedback form, two commenters described interactions that feel past the line to me (which I detail here).
❤️ I do wanna add that every interaction I had with you, Rachel, Saul, and all staff & volunteers was overwhelmingly positive, and I’d love to hang again IRL :) Were it not for the issue at hand, I would’ve also rated Manifest an 8–9 on my feedback form, you put on one hell of an event! I also appreciate your openness to feedback; there’s no way I would’ve posted publicly under my real name if I felt like I would get any grief or repercussions for it—that’s rare. (I don’t think I have much else persuasive to say on the main topic)
There have been a lot of EAGs with a lot of attendees, so I think it’s reasonable to ask for specific support for this proposition:
Which specific events and/or attendees at past EAGs have—or would reasonably be expected to—“turn away some of the most awesome up-and-coming folks”?
I have heard from many conversatives (and some grey tribe people) over the years that they feel very unwelcome at EA events (which is not very surprising, given quotes in the OP which expresses horror at a conference that might be 50% republicans, though I understand that might be more of a US/non-US cultural misunderstanding).
I don’t pay that much attention to which speakers go to EAG, so I am less sure about speakers, but there have been a bunch of radical-leftist animal rights people at various conferences that have been cited to me many times as something that made very promising young people substantially less likely to attend (I don’t want to dox the relevant attendees here, but would be happy to DM you some names if you want).
“there have been a bunch of radical-leftist animal rights people at various conferences that have been cited to me many times as something that made very promising young people substantially less likely to attend (I don’t want to dox the relevant attendees here, but would be happy to DM you some names if you want).”
I’m curious about the type of behaviour rather than the names of the people.
As an example of something that I think causes people to have this reaction, DxE coordinated and tried to stage a protest at the EA Global I organized in 2015, because we served some meat at the event. DxE also staged a protest at another CFAR event that I helped organize in 2016. Their protests at the time consisted of disruptively blocking access to the food and screaming very loudly (sometimes with a megaphone) at the people trying to get food about how they are evil (everyone gets to hear this, though it’s directed at the people who eat meat) until they get escorted out by security.
Some of their other public protests involve showering the floor and furniture in pig blood: https://www.totallyveganbuzz.com/headline-posts/vegan-activists-arrested-after-storming-mcdonalds-wearing-pig-masks-and-smearing-blood-across-the-floor/
(Also, to be clear on my position, I think Wayne Hsiung, head of DxE is a pretty terrible person with a history of disruption and advocating for pretty extreme bad things in my books, and I still think it would be good for him to be invited to Manifest, especially if he would debate his positions with someone, and he commits to not staging some kind of disruptive protest)
Thanks; this is helpful. It does seem reasonable that at least certain “radical-leftist animal rights people” would create an unwelcoming environment for many moderates and conservatives (and probably others too).
I am more hesitant to deny people admission to an event based on their ideological views (as long as they are fairly well-behaved) than I am to decide not to give them a spot on the agenda or “special guest” status. For example, aggressive proselytism of uninterested and unwilling people is annoying, whether the offender is preaching religion, politics, animal rights, operating-system preference, or sports fandom. I would deny admission for a history of that kind of behavior, but I would view it as application of a viewpoint-neutral conduct rule. Even the First Amendment doesn’t broadly grant people the right to aggressively push their views on an unwilling listener.
I don’t think it’s a function of specific events or speakers or attendees at an EAG, and more of like, a general sense that interesting and talented young folks no longer cite EA as a thing they support. I feel like Bentham’s Bulldog is almost the exception to that proves the rule. This is super vibes-based though, and I’m curious if others in the community agree or disagree with this take.
Two years ago, Tyler Cowen wrote
and this no longer feels true to me.
Maybe it’s because EA had more money two years ago, not because EA is too left-leaning