I think this pushes a set of norms as a fait accomplis when many seem murkier to me. In particular, among the things you think are clearly a risk are several situations that I do not think orgs should have on their risk list unless there are other external reasons.
Live with coworkers if there is no reporting issue or power differentials
Date coworkers if there is no reporting issue or power differentials
Promote stimulant use can be fine in some cases—eg “have you considered getting an ADHD diagnosis, maybe try mine for a day and see how you feel”
Can we wait a bit after the current complex discussion before pushing out lists of norms that are hard to disagree with publicly.
Edit Thank you @Rockwell for starting the discussion. Apologies for being a bit grumpy above.
In particular, among the things you think are clearly a risk are several situations that I do not think orgs should have on their risk list unless there are other external reasons [...]
Date coworkers if there is no reporting issue or power differentials
Hmm if you have a five-person org, I feel like it straightforwardly is a risk factor if one of the employees date each other. This is true even if both of them are individual contributors, there are no power differentials, etc.
It matters much less (arguably ~0) at say Google’s scale if a random data analyst working on Google Ads is dating a random software engineer working on Google Cloud. I’m not sure where the cutoff is, anything from 20 to 200 seems defensible to me.
You might believe that the ceteris paribus risk is not worth correcting for due to other values or pragmatics (professionalism norms against intruding on employees’ personal lives; thinking that the costs of breaking up a relationship is greater than the benefits you gain from the reduced organizational risk[1], etc). But it absolutely is a risk.
Perhaps we could change the wording from “Date coworkers” to something like “Date people you work with.” After all, the former phrasing allows dating a vendor or a contractor, while prohibiting a random data analyst working on Google Ads from dating a random software engineer working on Google Cloud.
This also brings to mind time, where it seems like projects and roles are uncorrelated enough right now that it’s fine to date, but two years of unforeseen career developments between the two of you create something like a formal power asymmetry. Are you obligated to redteam dates with respect to where your respective careers might end up in the future?
Promote stimulant use can be fine in some cases—eg “have you considered getting an ADHD diagnosis, maybe try mine for a day and see how you feel”
I think this is a bad idea. Suggesting someone ‘get a diagnosis’ is a terrible approach to health and medical advice. Giving someone your own prescribed medication is also a bad idea, and is exactly the kind of norm-crossing ickiness that should be reduced/eliminated. The version I would endorse is:
“Have you considered whether you might have ADHD? It might be a good idea to talk to a doctor about these issues you’re having, as medication can be helpful here.”
I disagree. I think the the general poise of EAs I know is correct—that stimulants are overregulated and that the people who need them most struggle to get them most. I will not condemn those who try to help others short circuit this.
As someone with an ADHD diagnosis, I have not found it remotely trivial to engage with and I wouldn’t have minded someone giving me a bit of a push.
While I disagree with the ways you suggest to help people regarding this, I appreciate you sharing your personal experience and I hope we can help people with ADHD without offering them prescription drugs directly.
If someone has been struggling to get their prescription and someone else lends them some for a few days, that is illegal. And if I was their boss and I thought this might be about to take place, I would walk out of the room.
Generally I agree that following the law is good, but I think legal norms around medication are way too strict and I wouldn’t want to be the reason someone gets theirs.
This article is both about risks and norms. And I don’t want anyone who helps/lends their medication to be considered a norm-breaking EA. Notably because that’s quite a lot people.
I think this pushes a set of norms as a fait accomplis when many seem murkier to me. In particular, among the things you think are clearly a risk are several situations that I do not think orgs should have on their risk list unless there are other external reasons.
Live with coworkers if there is no reporting issue or power differentials
Date coworkers if there is no reporting issue or power differentials
Promote stimulant use can be fine in some cases—eg “have you considered getting an ADHD diagnosis, maybe try mine for a day and see how you feel”
Can we wait a bit after the current complex discussion before pushing out lists of norms that are hard to disagree with publicly.
Edit Thank you @Rockwell for starting the discussion. Apologies for being a bit grumpy above.
Hmm if you have a five-person org, I feel like it straightforwardly is a risk factor if one of the employees date each other. This is true even if both of them are individual contributors, there are no power differentials, etc.
It matters much less (arguably ~0) at say Google’s scale if a random data analyst working on Google Ads is dating a random software engineer working on Google Cloud. I’m not sure where the cutoff is, anything from 20 to 200 seems defensible to me.
You might believe that the ceteris paribus risk is not worth correcting for due to other values or pragmatics (professionalism norms against intruding on employees’ personal lives; thinking that the costs of breaking up a relationship is greater than the benefits you gain from the reduced organizational risk[1], etc). But it absolutely is a risk.
for starters, I expect a reasonable fraction of those conversations to end with one of the employees quitting the company.
Perhaps we could change the wording from “Date coworkers” to something like “Date people you work with.” After all, the former phrasing allows dating a vendor or a contractor, while prohibiting a random data analyst working on Google Ads from dating a random software engineer working on Google Cloud.
This also brings to mind time, where it seems like projects and roles are uncorrelated enough right now that it’s fine to date, but two years of unforeseen career developments between the two of you create something like a formal power asymmetry. Are you obligated to redteam dates with respect to where your respective careers might end up in the future?
I think this is a bad idea. Suggesting someone ‘get a diagnosis’ is a terrible approach to health and medical advice. Giving someone your own prescribed medication is also a bad idea, and is exactly the kind of norm-crossing ickiness that should be reduced/eliminated. The version I would endorse is:
“Have you considered whether you might have ADHD? It might be a good idea to talk to a doctor about these issues you’re having, as medication can be helpful here.”
I disagree. I think the the general poise of EAs I know is correct—that stimulants are overregulated and that the people who need them most struggle to get them most. I will not condemn those who try to help others short circuit this.
As someone with an ADHD diagnosis, I have not found it remotely trivial to engage with and I wouldn’t have minded someone giving me a bit of a push.
While I disagree with the ways you suggest to help people regarding this, I appreciate you sharing your personal experience and I hope we can help people with ADHD without offering them prescription drugs directly.
Wouldn’t this be illegal? In which case, I think it’s pretty clearly at least a risk.
If someone has been struggling to get their prescription and someone else lends them some for a few days, that is illegal. And if I was their boss and I thought this might be about to take place, I would walk out of the room.
Generally I agree that following the law is good, but I think legal norms around medication are way too strict and I wouldn’t want to be the reason someone gets theirs.
This article is both about risks and norms. And I don’t want anyone who helps/lends their medication to be considered a norm-breaking EA. Notably because that’s quite a lot people.
I’ll just flag that this is a different situation to the one in your other comment, and I don’t think it raises any ethical difficulties.