l agree that I’m sure it’s exhausting for Emma and other women to talk about this. That Emma has done so so well is to her extreme credit. I think this is a really good piece.
But I guess Emma’s exhaustion comes from a fear of sharing something vulnerable or perhaps of not being taken seriously. Perhaps of the difficulty of writing on this forum in the first place.
My fear is different. It is of being disliked and becoming a pariah. I feel it in my spine and across my back. What if I misphrase this idea l’m playing with and everyone thinks I don’t take women’s sadness seriously?′
Perhaps one might respond “Maybe don’t play with ideas then?”
But then I don’t feel like I’m in a discussion, in this dicussion I feel like I’m being told to agree or shut up. I sense others feel it even more than I do.
I am not comparing the size of different emotions. Just talking about how I feel. I imagine those feelings make it harder for us to come to useful agreement here.
Thanks for sharing this, Nathan. As for me, I experience some anxiety that I might mess up posts or comments on this topic even though there are several factors that should make me less anxious than the average reader (e.g., I am mostly psuedonymous, I am not a career EA, my ideas are pretty mainstream-for-the-wider-culture, and I’m a professional writer). So I suspect that what you’re experiencing is pretty common and is valuable to share with others in the community.
I think it’s important for men of good faith to have a safe sandbox to think through some of these issues and learn how to be a better ally. In the area of sexual assault prevention, men who do not engage in problematic behaviors play an important part in many mitigations, like bystander intervention and combatting toxic masculinity. So, to the extent practicable, I think it is really important to avoid creating disincentives for men to engage on these issues—like fear of being seen as insensitive or worse due to a good-faith mistake.
But in the course of developing in this area, men will sometimes phrase things awkwardly and will sometimes say incorrect things. Maybe the Forum isn’t the best sandbox; I think I like the idea of a men’s group of sorts—I would favor having a trained facilitator involved in that. That way, the inevitable moments of awkard phrasing or error can be gently addressed without expecting women or non-binary people in the community to take on the emotional labor of addressing them.
To be clear, I definitely do think you take women’s sadness seriously.
Also I certainly hope nothing I’ve done has implied that you should agree or shut up—that’s not my intention at all.
I really do think benefit of the doubt is important. If you misphrase an idea and then concede that you misphrased it, I will understand that and not change my respect for you. I misphrase ideas all the time.
I mean I’m not sure I take women’s sadness seriously enough. That’s part of the whole complexity here. This isn’t just an abstract discussion for me and I guess many others, it’s a discussion about my actual actions and if I change my mind my behaviour changes, sometimes significantly (I definitely flirted with fewer people at EAG after parties as a result of this).
I know that’s not your intention, but I want to flag that that’s how it feels. I don’t think Emma could say anything that would get her cancelled here. Me? No I’m pretty sure I could easily earn scorn if I’m not careful.
As for misphrasing, I agree, though there is a discussion on twitter that suggests screenshots of the forum are fair game. I disagree—while public, this is a different kind of public than twitter. If screenshots are fair game then rephrasing or retracting is out the window.
I think your feelings are genuine, but I’m unfortunately not sure what to do about them besides what I’m already doing, which is try to be empathetic and welcoming.
~
there is a discussion on twitter that suggests screenshots of the forum are fair game. I disagree—while public, this is a different kind of public than twitter. If screenshots are fair game then rephrasing or retracting is out the window.
I had a conversation with someone that went like this:
Them—“Man, the EA Forum is like if all of EA had a water cooler to chat by”
Me, sarcastic—“Great, yeah, real smart of us to have a water cooler that is surrounded by journalists”
I think this gets at an important point that is pretty stifling / chilling, since the norms we’ve cultivated may not be upheld in other venues. I think it’s important to have these conversations in public so everyone can hear, but there are real large costs to that.
Another option: maybe have a moderated conversation in an offline space and then edit it before publishing?
I mean, in some sense I revel in this. If we can figure out how to do this discourse better than we can manage something that the rest of the internet can’t. Perhaps we can have men feel comfortable to admit failures in public without destroying them for it but taking responsibility and growing and staying part of the community. What a world.
l agree that I’m sure it’s exhausting for Emma and other women to talk about this. That Emma has done so so well is to her extreme credit. I think this is a really good piece.
But I guess Emma’s exhaustion comes from a fear of sharing something vulnerable or
perhaps of not being taken seriously. Perhaps of the difficulty of writing on this forum in the
first place.
My fear is different. It is of being disliked and becoming a pariah. I feel it in my spine and across my back. What if I misphrase this idea l’m playing with and everyone thinks I don’t take women’s sadness seriously?′
Perhaps one might respond “Maybe don’t play with ideas then?”
But then I don’t feel like I’m in a discussion, in this dicussion I feel like I’m being told to agree or shut up. I sense others feel it even more than I do.
I am not comparing the size of different emotions. Just talking about how I feel. I imagine those feelings make it harder for us to come to useful agreement here.
Thanks for sharing this, Nathan. As for me, I experience some anxiety that I might mess up posts or comments on this topic even though there are several factors that should make me less anxious than the average reader (e.g., I am mostly psuedonymous, I am not a career EA, my ideas are pretty mainstream-for-the-wider-culture, and I’m a professional writer). So I suspect that what you’re experiencing is pretty common and is valuable to share with others in the community.
I think it’s important for men of good faith to have a safe sandbox to think through some of these issues and learn how to be a better ally. In the area of sexual assault prevention, men who do not engage in problematic behaviors play an important part in many mitigations, like bystander intervention and combatting toxic masculinity. So, to the extent practicable, I think it is really important to avoid creating disincentives for men to engage on these issues—like fear of being seen as insensitive or worse due to a good-faith mistake.
But in the course of developing in this area, men will sometimes phrase things awkwardly and will sometimes say incorrect things. Maybe the Forum isn’t the best sandbox; I think I like the idea of a men’s group of sorts—I would favor having a trained facilitator involved in that. That way, the inevitable moments of awkard phrasing or error can be gently addressed without expecting women or non-binary people in the community to take on the emotional labor of addressing them.
To be clear, I definitely do think you take women’s sadness seriously.
Also I certainly hope nothing I’ve done has implied that you should agree or shut up—that’s not my intention at all.
I really do think benefit of the doubt is important. If you misphrase an idea and then concede that you misphrased it, I will understand that and not change my respect for you. I misphrase ideas all the time.
I mean I’m not sure I take women’s sadness seriously enough. That’s part of the whole complexity here. This isn’t just an abstract discussion for me and I guess many others, it’s a discussion about my actual actions and if I change my mind my behaviour changes, sometimes significantly (I definitely flirted with fewer people at EAG after parties as a result of this).
I know that’s not your intention, but I want to flag that that’s how it feels. I don’t think Emma could say anything that would get her cancelled here. Me? No I’m pretty sure I could easily earn scorn if I’m not careful.
As for misphrasing, I agree, though there is a discussion on twitter that suggests screenshots of the forum are fair game. I disagree—while public, this is a different kind of public than twitter. If screenshots are fair game then rephrasing or retracting is out the window.
I think your feelings are genuine, but I’m unfortunately not sure what to do about them besides what I’m already doing, which is try to be empathetic and welcoming.
~
I had a conversation with someone that went like this:
Them—“Man, the EA Forum is like if all of EA had a water cooler to chat by”
Me, sarcastic—“Great, yeah, real smart of us to have a water cooler that is surrounded by journalists”
I think this gets at an important point that is pretty stifling / chilling, since the norms we’ve cultivated may not be upheld in other venues. I think it’s important to have these conversations in public so everyone can hear, but there are real large costs to that.
Another option: maybe have a moderated conversation in an offline space and then edit it before publishing?
I mean, in some sense I revel in this. If we can figure out how to do this discourse better than we can manage something that the rest of the internet can’t. Perhaps we can have men feel comfortable to admit failures in public without destroying them for it but taking responsibility and growing and staying part of the community. What a world.
Yes, it may not be a good idea.