If Eliezer Yudkowsky had spent 30% less time writing the sequences and used that time to shitpost a bunch of solid memes on twitter about the shorter version of the sequences, EA would probably be twice as large as it is now.
This is both a joke and directionally true. Twitter and reddit are community building tools and best at creating memes and viral content. I haven’t really thought this through in any detail, but I wonder if the EA/rationalist obsession with deeply analyzing and debating everything makes them bad at memes.
There’s a private facebook group you can sign up for that has some pretty solid EA memes . I love it, but I always figured it was private for a reason—EA is full of lots of counterintuitive philosophical ideas that people find off-putting (like… utilitarianism alone is already off-putting to most normies), and EA seems to be very obsessed with having a good/prestigious reputation as a responsible, serious movement. Our jokes are mostly about how weird EA is, so we might want to keep our jokes to ourselves if we are desperately trying to seem normal to everyone else.
It’s certainly an interesting contrast with r/neoliberal, where dank memes somehow coexist side by side with long, earnest “effortposts” in the style of The Economist or D.C. think-tanks.
I think part of the difference is that memes are an underdog strategy—hence the effectiveness of right-wing memes around 2016 and the idea that “the left can’t meme”. Jokes have always been used to poke holes in the logic of the ruling ideology, hence the epic legacy of Russian political jokes.
Neoliberalism certainly isn’t a complete underdog—center-leftism broadly is arguably still the dominant global ideology. But they still have lots of opportunities to “punch up” at contradictions in the non-neoliberal doctrines of political leaders, major news publications, burdensome laws and regulations, etc.
With EA, it’s not clear that there’s any ruling ideology for us to try to take down a peg. We could start making fun of ordinary charities like the Red Cross and Salvation Army, but I doubt that would go over well. I think the lack of an external enemy means that most of our memes have to be self-deprecatory (making fun of how weird we are), lest they seem like “punching down” (reveling in how right we are and making fun of ordinary people who don’t agree with EA ideas).
But I’m not sure about that theory; hopefully there is some way we can figure out how to harness meme magic. New Cause Area?
I love it, but I always figured it was private for a reason—EA is full of lots of counterintuitive philosophical ideas that people find off-putting (like… utilitarianism alone is already off-putting to most normies), and EA seems to be very obsessed with having a good/prestigious reputation as a responsible, serious movement. Our jokes are mostly about how weird EA is, so we might want to keep our jokes to ourselves if we are desperately trying to seem normal to everyone else.
As an admin for that group, I can confirm that’s why the group has been private.
Our jokes are mostly about how weird EA is, so we might want to keep our jokes to ourselves if we are desperately trying to seem normal to everyone else.
We aren’t trying to desperately seem normal to everyone else. We should ’t try to be weird and we should probably try to fit in with mainstream society in some crucial ways but if our attempts to appear normal can be described as “desperate,” they’re probably an over-correction.
We could start making fun of ordinary charities like the Red Cross and Salvation Army, but I doubt that would go over well
One of the Salvation Army’s slogan is also “doing the most good,” and yes, that is really true, so that’s made for some great memes. Otherwise, yes, memes like this have mostly been taken to have been made in poor taste.
I’m not sure about that theory; hopefully there is some way we can figure out how to harness meme magic.
This has already been accomplished in multiple ways. Since it was launched almost seven years ago, among other achievements, a few hundred thousand dollars have been counterfactually donated to EA-prioritized causes through that group. I’ve thought of doing a write-up about it but I’ve not gotten around to it. I’d do that write-up if enough people thought it’d be valuable.
Certainly as a part-time neoliberal I’ll say neolibs have a much more vibrant meme culture. Though I guess that’s because they have a more publicly shitpost-y aesthetic. By r/neoliberal standards almost every post on the EA forum is an “effortpost”.
EA as a community is pretty publicly soberminded. I imagine that turns some poeple off.
EA as a community is pretty publicly sober-minded. I imagine that turns some people off.
It might be better for EA to turn some people off, if they’re not the kind who cares to have sufficient standards for effectiveness. Also, as an admin for Dank EA Memes, I attest that EA could easily have a more vibrant meme culture if things changed to make that the better option. It’s not clear to me which way is the better way to go. I’m not going to dignify the notion r/neoliberal memes are danker than EA memes with a response unless neoliberals start showing insisting on it, in which case I will likely respond with hostility.
Neoliberals tend to talk about issues that many people take an interest in to a greater extent than EAs do. I would guess that that’s an important part of the explanation of the Neoliberals’ greater success on Twitter.
You might be partially right, but in the early days we were largely memeing about free trade, immigration, and semi-ironic worship of central bankers. Most of that isn’t exactly the hot thing with the youths, but never underestimate the power of memes to make something ironically cool in a subculture.
Hmm, I’m not sure if that’s true. People really like animals, people find emerging technology/futurism interesting, and even some of the weirder ideas (eg., philosophy of mind, aliens) are captivating to people (at least when dumbed down somewhat). Contrast these ideas with wonky political ideas like monetary policy or open borders, and I’d guess that EA-issues come out ahead of neoliberal issues on interest.
Yeah, but they might be shocked that we think of some of “the weirder ideas” as the most pressing. Most people think the economy, civil rights, climate change, etc. are the biggest issues.
I haven’t really thought this through in any detail, but I wonder if the EA/rationalist obsession with deeply analyzing and debating everything makes them bad at memes.
This seems really plausible to me. I think I’m above average among EAs at memes. So after releasing a tentative summary of research done by a coworker and I, I thought it’d be really cool to summarize our (very long) post in a few quick memes. But every time I try to do this (and seriously, I’ve spent ~30 minutes by now across multiple false starts), I get stuck because I worry too much about the memes not conveying the appropriate level of nuance or whatever, plus I worry about seeming too irreverent and accidentally making light of some people’s life’s work, plus… :/
I haven’t really thought this through in any detail, but I wonder if the EA/rationalist obsession with deeply analyzing and debating everything makes them bad at memes.
This seems really plausible to me. I think I’m above average among EAs at memes.
It’s more than really plausible. It’s definitely true. In general, effective altruists tends to suck at making memes. More than a humble opinion, it is a fact that you’re in the top half of the top decile for making memes in EA. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re in the top percentile. It’s not hard. Most effective altruists are just not that good at making memes.
So after releasing a tentative summary of research done by a coworker and I, I thought it’d be really cool to summarize our (very long) post in a few quick memes. But every time I try to do this (and seriously, I’ve spent ~30 minutes by now across multiple false starts), I get stuck because I worry too much about the memes not conveying the appropriate level of nuance or whatever, plus I worry about seeming too irreverent and accidentally making light of some people’s life’s work, plus… :/
You should have come to me. You could have messaged any major meme-maker in dank EA memes. This wouldn’t be hard. Even with concerns with being too irreverent, the solution is to run the memes by whoever did the work first. We’ve done that in dank EA memes before with Brian Tomasik or David Denkenberger.
I think it’s a good proof of concept—have something fun that people enjoy as a gateway drug into the group’s more serious ideas. But simpler reddit/twitter content would work even better—their content is astonishingly viral compared to long works of fan-fiction.
Neoliberalism is successful on Twitter and Reddit. What do you think EA gets wrong about these platforms?
If Eliezer Yudkowsky had spent 30% less time writing the sequences and used that time to shitpost a bunch of solid memes on twitter about the shorter version of the sequences, EA would probably be twice as large as it is now.
This is both a joke and directionally true. Twitter and reddit are community building tools and best at creating memes and viral content. I haven’t really thought this through in any detail, but I wonder if the EA/rationalist obsession with deeply analyzing and debating everything makes them bad at memes.
There’s a private facebook group you can sign up for that has some pretty solid EA memes . I love it, but I always figured it was private for a reason—EA is full of lots of counterintuitive philosophical ideas that people find off-putting (like… utilitarianism alone is already off-putting to most normies), and EA seems to be very obsessed with having a good/prestigious reputation as a responsible, serious movement. Our jokes are mostly about how weird EA is, so we might want to keep our jokes to ourselves if we are desperately trying to seem normal to everyone else.
It’s certainly an interesting contrast with r/neoliberal, where dank memes somehow coexist side by side with long, earnest “effortposts” in the style of The Economist or D.C. think-tanks.
I think part of the difference is that memes are an underdog strategy—hence the effectiveness of right-wing memes around 2016 and the idea that “the left can’t meme”. Jokes have always been used to poke holes in the logic of the ruling ideology, hence the epic legacy of Russian political jokes. Neoliberalism certainly isn’t a complete underdog—center-leftism broadly is arguably still the dominant global ideology. But they still have lots of opportunities to “punch up” at contradictions in the non-neoliberal doctrines of political leaders, major news publications, burdensome laws and regulations, etc.
With EA, it’s not clear that there’s any ruling ideology for us to try to take down a peg. We could start making fun of ordinary charities like the Red Cross and Salvation Army, but I doubt that would go over well. I think the lack of an external enemy means that most of our memes have to be self-deprecatory (making fun of how weird we are), lest they seem like “punching down” (reveling in how right we are and making fun of ordinary people who don’t agree with EA ideas).
But I’m not sure about that theory; hopefully there is some way we can figure out how to harness meme magic. New Cause Area?
As an admin for that group, I can confirm that’s why the group has been private.
We aren’t trying to desperately seem normal to everyone else. We should ’t try to be weird and we should probably try to fit in with mainstream society in some crucial ways but if our attempts to appear normal can be described as “desperate,” they’re probably an over-correction.
One of the Salvation Army’s slogan is also “doing the most good,” and yes, that is really true, so that’s made for some great memes. Otherwise, yes, memes like this have mostly been taken to have been made in poor taste.
This has already been accomplished in multiple ways. Since it was launched almost seven years ago, among other achievements, a few hundred thousand dollars have been counterfactually donated to EA-prioritized causes through that group. I’ve thought of doing a write-up about it but I’ve not gotten around to it. I’d do that write-up if enough people thought it’d be valuable.
Good joke at the end.
Certainly as a part-time neoliberal I’ll say neolibs have a much more vibrant meme culture. Though I guess that’s because they have a more publicly shitpost-y aesthetic. By r/neoliberal standards almost every post on the EA forum is an “effortpost”.
EA as a community is pretty publicly soberminded. I imagine that turns some poeple off.
It might be better for EA to turn some people off, if they’re not the kind who cares to have sufficient standards for effectiveness. Also, as an admin for Dank EA Memes, I attest that EA could easily have a more vibrant meme culture if things changed to make that the better option. It’s not clear to me which way is the better way to go. I’m not going to dignify the notion r/neoliberal memes are danker than EA memes with a response unless neoliberals start showing insisting on it, in which case I will likely respond with hostility.
Neoliberals tend to talk about issues that many people take an interest in to a greater extent than EAs do. I would guess that that’s an important part of the explanation of the Neoliberals’ greater success on Twitter.
You might be partially right, but in the early days we were largely memeing about free trade, immigration, and semi-ironic worship of central bankers. Most of that isn’t exactly the hot thing with the youths, but never underestimate the power of memes to make something ironically cool in a subculture.
I’ve been reading the comments in this thread but this one convinces me it’d be worthwhile to do a review of the impact of dank effective altruism memes.
Hmm, I’m not sure if that’s true. People really like animals, people find emerging technology/futurism interesting, and even some of the weirder ideas (eg., philosophy of mind, aliens) are captivating to people (at least when dumbed down somewhat). Contrast these ideas with wonky political ideas like monetary policy or open borders, and I’d guess that EA-issues come out ahead of neoliberal issues on interest.
Yeah, but they might be shocked that we think of some of “the weirder ideas” as the most pressing. Most people think the economy, civil rights, climate change, etc. are the biggest issues.
This seems really plausible to me. I think I’m above average among EAs at memes. So after releasing a tentative summary of research done by a coworker and I, I thought it’d be really cool to summarize our (very long) post in a few quick memes. But every time I try to do this (and seriously, I’ve spent ~30 minutes by now across multiple false starts), I get stuck because I worry too much about the memes not conveying the appropriate level of nuance or whatever, plus I worry about seeming too irreverent and accidentally making light of some people’s life’s work, plus… :/
It’s more than really plausible. It’s definitely true. In general, effective altruists tends to suck at making memes. More than a humble opinion, it is a fact that you’re in the top half of the top decile for making memes in EA. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re in the top percentile. It’s not hard. Most effective altruists are just not that good at making memes.
You should have come to me. You could have messaged any major meme-maker in dank EA memes. This wouldn’t be hard. Even with concerns with being too irreverent, the solution is to run the memes by whoever did the work first. We’ve done that in dank EA memes before with Brian Tomasik or David Denkenberger.
What about HPMOR? It seems like a really popular meme (in the broader sense)
I think it’s a good proof of concept—have something fun that people enjoy as a gateway drug into the group’s more serious ideas. But simpler reddit/twitter content would work even better—their content is astonishingly viral compared to long works of fan-fiction.