Or maybe people love Peter Thiel, Musk and red pills here? In this case, I guess, there’s not much to discuss. At least I expected some answers. It’s as if people don’t even bother to explain what is being done—just assumed to be “correct”?
In addition, we are issuing a warning to sergia, for this and other comments. Sergia, please read the EA Forum norms post and, if you’re in doubt of whether your comment is meeting those norms, please wait for a while and revise your comment.
This subthread seems to be going in a bad direction. I would encourage those wanting to discuss the net-value of Elon Musk and Peter Thiel on the world to do so elsewhere.
Well, I feel the “red pill” part is directly relevant to alignment, both for current and long-term issues, the values that go into the AI part, and the power structure of the AI company that does it part.
I guess that’s why I included it into my post, don’t really know, I did it with mostly emotion and emotion is not well-interpretable always (sometimes for the best).
I do feel we (EA , tech, finance and related) need to discuss this as a community, the “red pill” stuff and whether it’s extreme (my experience n=1 and my interpretation of m=~100 other people says that yes, it’s a poorly and vaguely phrased partial theory that mostly explains how traumatic, unhappy, unhealthy relationships work (traumatized people are ones who will be most responsive to the “push-pull” pickup artistry, not because “this is how people are” but because “this is how traumatized people try to be happy and fail”), giving a phenomenological explanation with a completely wrong and actively harmful explanation of the underlying causes, with links to fascism and dehumanisation, agressiveness and fatalism)
Personally, I feel in a lot of cases this ideology is the reason people are unsuccessful in relationships: it is a fake cure for a problem that was probably “just” trauma and misunderstanding in the first place. Like, a society-wide misunderstanding between genders. Again, my personal view.
See my other comments about how “a society which is not aligned within itself is unlikely to be able to align other entities well”. Something as massive as this I believe should be addressed first before anything external can be taken care of
Same reason I feel the discussion “apple&android vs Nokia&fxtec” in another thread is very very very directly relevant to alignment, again, both power structure-wise and values themselves-wise.
Don’t really know to best do such a discussion, again, I’m only one person, I don’t really know :)
I am tired. I want a vacation from all this.
I have hope in the community that they are smart and capable and can sort these things through.
I understand that downvotes can be hurtful – but afaik the post has been up for 45min, so maybe it would be a good idea to wait a bit before reading too much into the reaction/non-reaction?
personally I love Thiel & Musk and think they’ve been massive net positives for the world!
Strong agree with Musk (undecided on Thiel), and it frustrates me so much that people on this forum casually dismiss him. I would go so far as to say I think he’s been a much bigger net positive than much if not all of the EA movement—massively improving our prospects from climate change, and reducing existential risk by moving us towards being multiplanetary as fast as possible.
The standard counterarguments seem to be ‘bunkers > planets’, ‘AI makes being multiplanetary irrelevant’, and ‘climate change isn’t a big deal so Tesla doesn’t matter’. I think all three of these arguments are a) probably wrong and more importantly b) almost completely unargued for.
I’m unclear who I feel has the burden of proof on such issues. In some sense burden of proof is a silly concept here, but in another I feel like it’s very important. When 80k et al regularly talk people out of becoming engineers to go into AI safety research or similar, a view which is then often picked up by the wider community, it seems very important that those same EAs should put serious thought into counterfactuals .
well clearly Musk is much better than all the EAs, he built these massive multi-billion-dollar companies and created loads of value on the way! We’re going back to space with Elon! How cool is that? If you disagree, well, ok, I guess that’s a very bold take considering the stock market’s opinion....
re EVs, agree as well, even if you don’t believe the climate stuff (I do w/ some caveats) then Teslas are very beautiful, great cars and almost certainly good for the world on other dimensions (i.e less local pollution in urban areas etc)
How do you feel about the “red pill” they seem to embrace (Musk openly and Thiel by evidence)? Do you feel this worldview affects their actions? Do you think it is extreme? Which political affiliation does “red pill” seem to belong to—left or right? Do you believe in those “sexual markets” stuff? Thank you for your replies.
I would have upvoted but for the red pill paragraph, which seemed needlessly uncharitable to Thiel and Musk. Your comment here seems more like it’s spoiling for a fight than looking for a discussion.
IIRC Musk once tweeted ‘take the red pill’ with no context, a phrase which traditionally referred to any instance of people having a radical perspective shift. When asked, he said he didn’t know about the pick up artistry subgroup of the same name. I see no reason to disbelieve this, and I haven’t heard him say anything particularly in line with their views elsewhere.
The red pill philosophy is broadly associated with—though strictly unrelated to—right wing politics. What does that have to do with anything? Plenty of EAs are right wing. It’s not a pejorative.
To sum up my other comment, yes, I want to confront you with normalizing red pill. I think it’s fascist and dehumanising.
Yes, I also think it’s relevant to AI alignment, because a community that is not aligned itself, that is “at war” between it’s own genders (tech people), is unlikely to align something else well.
Saying this as a person from a fascist country who kinda supports an ex-fascist politician trying to do better and be kinder (see Navalny)
Saying this as a sexual abuser and mentally abused.
Saying this as one who apologized and saw that what I did was wrong. And one who now sees how stupid and unnecessary it was.
Saying this as one who talked to pro-Putin people a lot to understand how this all works.
There are ways to have both emotion and logic at peace and harmony. Together. Not at war.
Which “right wing” do you mean? I think it was about “small government” (but not “zero government”).
How is “red pill” related to “small government”? :)
You’re using the other “right wing”, which is something related to traditional family. That is one step there—a patriarch in the family. “Red pill” is asserting that it has enough explanatory power to overwhelm the aspect of free will in decisions of women and men, that the “sexual market” is a more clear explanation for how relationships go.
I’d say it’s a bit of an extreme step, because it claims a single simple objective for the whole of humanity: “women procreate, men fight”, creating a “stereotype of masculinity” being about “winning fights, physical or metaphorical”.
This theory completely ignores male singers who don’t seem to be into this stereotype. Some women loved Michael Jackson, and he doesn’t seem to be the “fighting type”, rather the feelings one.
This theory has blind spots, and is asserted quite forcefully: it has a mechanism of one being scared that they’re “poisoning their market value” if they do something out of line, seen in “chad/incel” memes for example.
Saying this as a person from Russia who saw the rise of fascism in our country, how our culture war went from the internet to the battlefield. I believed in this. I have seen this to be false. Saying this as a person who is responsible for sexual assault and who tries to heal and be better. “Red pill” is b.s. see my posts on Mastodon to see more on this.
It’s an extreme theory that ignores important corner cases (queer people), and tends to make people resentful towards anything not fitting in the theory, all while taking away “free will” to replace it with a “simple objective function”, without any research and clear outliers/exceptions, and is linked to male violence. Ironically, turning people into machines, the very thing the real “red pill from the movie” was not really pro: the concept name itself is stolen from a movie by trans authors and basically turned upside down in an evil twisted way: Neo was like “I’m gonna talk to the machines and bring peace to y’all. The war is gonna end”. Red pillers are like “we like guns, force and fighting and don’t like to talk about complex things much” 🤷♀️
“Small government” right wing is not a pejorative. “Traditional cisgender relationship with a man deciding things” is ok too if a women likes it too (and not forcefully taken into that). “Red pill” is, like, way out there for me—it’s a notion that a man can take any woman—nonsense if we consider that some women cheered when Trump was like “grab them and such”, and some women would not like a single violation of consent, like tagging on Twitter. Women are just people. People are different.
“If I loved him any less, I’d make him stay
But he has to be the best , player of games”
She asserts she is aware of the ongoing “push-pull” pickup artistry from him, but refuses to apply it herself to achieve her goal, then says thay the dude is always at work basically
I’d say by the video, using subjective holistic judgement, that he’s legit red-pilled.
And my post above says that red pill is extreme and linked to fascism.
And I say it’s related to so many cases of sexual assault in tech, EA, finance—people see “simple markets” where there’s just so much more complexity, and not much markets necessarily :)
So you don’t have any further reason to think Musk has anything to do with red pill philosophy, but you’re going to cast a bunch of aspersions on him and then randomly insult me at the end.
Or maybe people love Peter Thiel, Musk and red pills here? In this case, I guess, there’s not much to discuss. At least I expected some answers. It’s as if people don’t even bother to explain what is being done—just assumed to be “correct”?
In addition, we are issuing a warning to sergia, for this and other comments. Sergia, please read the EA Forum norms post and, if you’re in doubt of whether your comment is meeting those norms, please wait for a while and revise your comment.
This subthread seems to be going in a bad direction. I would encourage those wanting to discuss the net-value of Elon Musk and Peter Thiel on the world to do so elsewhere.
Well, I feel the “red pill” part is directly relevant to alignment, both for current and long-term issues, the values that go into the AI part, and the power structure of the AI company that does it part.
I guess that’s why I included it into my post, don’t really know, I did it with mostly emotion and emotion is not well-interpretable always (sometimes for the best).
I do feel we (EA , tech, finance and related) need to discuss this as a community, the “red pill” stuff and whether it’s extreme (my experience n=1 and my interpretation of m=~100 other people says that yes, it’s a poorly and vaguely phrased partial theory that mostly explains how traumatic, unhappy, unhealthy relationships work (traumatized people are ones who will be most responsive to the “push-pull” pickup artistry, not because “this is how people are” but because “this is how traumatized people try to be happy and fail”), giving a phenomenological explanation with a completely wrong and actively harmful explanation of the underlying causes, with links to fascism and dehumanisation, agressiveness and fatalism)
Personally, I feel in a lot of cases this ideology is the reason people are unsuccessful in relationships: it is a fake cure for a problem that was probably “just” trauma and misunderstanding in the first place. Like, a society-wide misunderstanding between genders. Again, my personal view.
See my other comments about how “a society which is not aligned within itself is unlikely to be able to align other entities well”. Something as massive as this I believe should be addressed first before anything external can be taken care of
Same reason I feel the discussion “apple&android vs Nokia&fxtec” in another thread is very very very directly relevant to alignment, again, both power structure-wise and values themselves-wise.
Don’t really know to best do such a discussion, again, I’m only one person, I don’t really know :)
I am tired. I want a vacation from all this.
I have hope in the community that they are smart and capable and can sort these things through.
I understand that downvotes can be hurtful – but afaik the post has been up for 45min, so maybe it would be a good idea to wait a bit before reading too much into the reaction/non-reaction?
personally I love Thiel & Musk and think they’ve been massive net positives for the world!
Strong agree with Musk (undecided on Thiel), and it frustrates me so much that people on this forum casually dismiss him. I would go so far as to say I think he’s been a much bigger net positive than much if not all of the EA movement—massively improving our prospects from climate change, and reducing existential risk by moving us towards being multiplanetary as fast as possible.
The standard counterarguments seem to be ‘bunkers > planets’, ‘AI makes being multiplanetary irrelevant’, and ‘climate change isn’t a big deal so Tesla doesn’t matter’. I think all three of these arguments are a) probably wrong and more importantly b) almost completely unargued for.
I’m unclear who I feel has the burden of proof on such issues. In some sense burden of proof is a silly concept here, but in another I feel like it’s very important. When 80k et al regularly talk people out of becoming engineers to go into AI safety research or similar, a view which is then often picked up by the wider community, it seems very important that those same EAs should put serious thought into counterfactuals .
well clearly Musk is much better than all the EAs, he built these massive multi-billion-dollar companies and created loads of value on the way! We’re going back to space with Elon! How cool is that? If you disagree, well, ok, I guess that’s a very bold take considering the stock market’s opinion....
re EVs, agree as well, even if you don’t believe the climate stuff (I do w/ some caveats) then Teslas are very beautiful, great cars and almost certainly good for the world on other dimensions (i.e less local pollution in urban areas etc)
How do you feel about the “red pill” they seem to embrace (Musk openly and Thiel by evidence)? Do you feel this worldview affects their actions? Do you think it is extreme? Which political affiliation does “red pill” seem to belong to—left or right? Do you believe in those “sexual markets” stuff? Thank you for your replies.
I would have upvoted but for the red pill paragraph, which seemed needlessly uncharitable to Thiel and Musk. Your comment here seems more like it’s spoiling for a fight than looking for a discussion.
IIRC Musk once tweeted ‘take the red pill’ with no context, a phrase which traditionally referred to any instance of people having a radical perspective shift. When asked, he said he didn’t know about the pick up artistry subgroup of the same name. I see no reason to disbelieve this, and I haven’t heard him say anything particularly in line with their views elsewhere.
The red pill philosophy is broadly associated with—though strictly unrelated to—right wing politics. What does that have to do with anything? Plenty of EAs are right wing. It’s not a pejorative.
To sum up my other comment, yes, I want to confront you with normalizing red pill. I think it’s fascist and dehumanising.
Yes, I also think it’s relevant to AI alignment, because a community that is not aligned itself, that is “at war” between it’s own genders (tech people), is unlikely to align something else well.
Saying this as a person from a fascist country who kinda supports an ex-fascist politician trying to do better and be kinder (see Navalny)
Saying this as a sexual abuser and mentally abused.
Saying this as one who apologized and saw that what I did was wrong. And one who now sees how stupid and unnecessary it was.
Saying this as one who talked to pro-Putin people a lot to understand how this all works.
There are ways to have both emotion and logic at peace and harmony. Together. Not at war.
Red pill ain’t it.
It’s extreme, agressive, ugly, stolen, perverted, dead.
Which “right wing” do you mean? I think it was about “small government” (but not “zero government”).
How is “red pill” related to “small government”? :)
You’re using the other “right wing”, which is something related to traditional family. That is one step there—a patriarch in the family. “Red pill” is asserting that it has enough explanatory power to overwhelm the aspect of free will in decisions of women and men, that the “sexual market” is a more clear explanation for how relationships go.
I’d say it’s a bit of an extreme step, because it claims a single simple objective for the whole of humanity: “women procreate, men fight”, creating a “stereotype of masculinity” being about “winning fights, physical or metaphorical”.
This theory completely ignores male singers who don’t seem to be into this stereotype. Some women loved Michael Jackson, and he doesn’t seem to be the “fighting type”, rather the feelings one.
This theory has blind spots, and is asserted quite forcefully: it has a mechanism of one being scared that they’re “poisoning their market value” if they do something out of line, seen in “chad/incel” memes for example.
Saying this as a person from Russia who saw the rise of fascism in our country, how our culture war went from the internet to the battlefield. I believed in this. I have seen this to be false. Saying this as a person who is responsible for sexual assault and who tries to heal and be better. “Red pill” is b.s. see my posts on Mastodon to see more on this.
It’s an extreme theory that ignores important corner cases (queer people), and tends to make people resentful towards anything not fitting in the theory, all while taking away “free will” to replace it with a “simple objective function”, without any research and clear outliers/exceptions, and is linked to male violence. Ironically, turning people into machines, the very thing the real “red pill from the movie” was not really pro: the concept name itself is stolen from a movie by trans authors and basically turned upside down in an evil twisted way: Neo was like “I’m gonna talk to the machines and bring peace to y’all. The war is gonna end”. Red pillers are like “we like guns, force and fighting and don’t like to talk about complex things much” 🤷♀️
“Small government” right wing is not a pejorative. “Traditional cisgender relationship with a man deciding things” is ok too if a women likes it too (and not forcefully taken into that). “Red pill” is, like, way out there for me—it’s a notion that a man can take any woman—nonsense if we consider that some women cheered when Trump was like “grab them and such”, and some women would not like a single violation of consent, like tagging on Twitter. Women are just people. People are different.
Musk’s ex-wife made a song about him.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ADHFwabVJec
“If I loved him any less, I’d make him stay But he has to be the best , player of games”
She asserts she is aware of the ongoing “push-pull” pickup artistry from him, but refuses to apply it herself to achieve her goal, then says thay the dude is always at work basically
I’d say by the video, using subjective holistic judgement, that he’s legit red-pilled.
And my post above says that red pill is extreme and linked to fascism.
And I say it’s related to so many cases of sexual assault in tech, EA, finance—people see “simple markets” where there’s just so much more complexity, and not much markets necessarily :)
Bite me :)
So you don’t have any further reason to think Musk has anything to do with red pill philosophy, but you’re going to cast a bunch of aspersions on him and then randomly insult me at the end.
Bye.
I’m not insulting you. I’m challenging your belief.
And, where is the insult? Which line?.. I’m saying that the red pill ideology is fascist. How does it insult you? Well, unless...
And yes, I think that if his multiple wifes all say kinda the same thing, it’s legit evidence. Yes.
And yes, I believe this is relevant for alignment. Directly. A community of red pillers creates an AI. Where would it go and what would it do?..