I came here to write something kind of sloppy, but this is a much more measured and clear thing than I could have written, and I agree with basically all of it (though I think I might have more support for point A than you do, depending on some nuance). I’m also pretty disappointed with CEA’s response and have some desire to go around semi-emotionally pointing something like, “this organization clearly does not have truth/integrity as its primary value, you cannot trust it”. I’m pretty sad about this; I’m not personally an EA but have many friends in the community and have supported and defended the movement from the sidelines for a long time. While I intend to keep supporting my friends I feel much less inclined to support the organized movement, now.
Let us take a moment of sympathy for the folks at CEA (who are, after all, or allies in the flight to make the world better). Scant weeks ago they were facing harsh criticism for failing to quickly make the conventional statement about the FTX scandal. Now they’re facing criticism for doing exactly that. I’m glad I’m not comms director at CEA for sure.
While I do sympathise with them having to handle yet another scandal which most of them had no involvement with, this comment seems to both oversimplify the differences and misrepresent what people were actually asking for post-FTX:
The actions of FTX and SBF were, from three or four days after the news broke, universally condemned. Many people feel Bostrom’s apology was reasonable.
CEA had been directly involved in helping establish Alameda/FTX, and had actively worked with them and promoted them ever since. Bostrom is often cited, but nowhere near as closely involved with the organisation, at least formally.
What people were asking for was not for them ‘to make the conventional statement’, but to show evidence of honest introspection: to admit to responsibility where and if applicable (given their ongoing involvement), and give some kind of reason to believe they’d learned something useful so that nothing like it would happen again.
As far as I know, they’ve still offered no such public introspection.
Agree with the original comment and Aella. I would add that should the university or others decide to take action, this matter would be important enough to stand the ground in favor of Bostrom, also non-anonymously. We can not “choose” our views, as some comments asked for that seems very PC. Also, we should not be held accountable for what we wrote 25+ years ago unless we repeat it.
However, “standing the ground” is precisely the opposite of what is needed, we need calm, well-intended, and measured discussions and I appreciated the blog post by David Thorstad in depth criticizing Bostrom. It is understandable when some (here, Twitter, or elsewhere) are angry, frustrated, or demand changes. Public statements like the one from CEA, however, are likely not helpful (that they don’t support the original mail is presumed without their message). Nor to be fair was the rather sloppy apology by Bostrom.
What is not obvious is the next step. I believe Bostrom that he is not interested in continuing this discussion and I do not see a value in forcing him to. Maybe a workshop/red-team white paper having a close and balanced look at this discussion where and if EA and the longtermism movement suffer from racism as alleged and if yes, what can be done about it?
we should not be held accountable for what we wrote 25+ years ago unless we repeat it
But repeating it is exactly what his “apology” did! None of the people angry about this is thinking “Bostrom was racist 26 years ago, and that’s problematic even though he apologized and has changed”. The point is that his new letter exemplifies how he is racist and supports eugenicist ideas still.
I understand where you are coming from and wish your comment was not downvoted so much. We both want EA free of racism and I suggested measures to be taken to ensure this and more should be considered.
While FTX was a once-in-a-decade crime and may have showed systematic failure of EA, Bostrom’s apology is not a crime. Of course it does reflect badly on EA PR-wise.
So I see your points and will read his next publications with a yellow flag in my mind. I do, however, think he should not be “canceled”, he likely is not racist (I don’t know him personally), and I and we should focus in 2023 mostly on alignment work or other global priorities. Should you feel different, I fully support measures as detailed above.
As I say in my comment below, I think the question is “given all that we know, is CEA a truth-seeking org” and I still think yes. I don’t think the statement changed my mind much.
While I think it can make sense to model whole organisations as having traits like ‘truth-seeking’ or ‘having integrity’ or ‘transparent’, particularly when they are small and homogenous, it’s always worth remembering that organisations are made up of people, and those people can vary a lot along all those traits. For example, CEA’s character could change rapidly after hiring a lot, or if they lose one exceptionally conscientious person, etc.
I came here to write something kind of sloppy, but this is a much more measured and clear thing than I could have written, and I agree with basically all of it (though I think I might have more support for point A than you do, depending on some nuance). I’m also pretty disappointed with CEA’s response and have some desire to go around semi-emotionally pointing something like, “this organization clearly does not have truth/integrity as its primary value, you cannot trust it”. I’m pretty sad about this; I’m not personally an EA but have many friends in the community and have supported and defended the movement from the sidelines for a long time. While I intend to keep supporting my friends I feel much less inclined to support the organized movement, now.
Let us take a moment of sympathy for the folks at CEA (who are, after all, or allies in the flight to make the world better). Scant weeks ago they were facing harsh criticism for failing to quickly make the conventional statement about the FTX scandal. Now they’re facing criticism for doing exactly that. I’m glad I’m not comms director at CEA for sure.
While I do sympathise with them having to handle yet another scandal which most of them had no involvement with, this comment seems to both oversimplify the differences and misrepresent what people were actually asking for post-FTX:
The actions of FTX and SBF were, from three or four days after the news broke, universally condemned. Many people feel Bostrom’s apology was reasonable.
CEA had been directly involved in helping establish Alameda/FTX, and had actively worked with them and promoted them ever since. Bostrom is often cited, but nowhere near as closely involved with the organisation, at least formally.
What people were asking for was not for them ‘to make the conventional statement’, but to show evidence of honest introspection: to admit to responsibility where and if applicable (given their ongoing involvement), and give some kind of reason to believe they’d learned something useful so that nothing like it would happen again.
As far as I know, they’ve still offered no such public introspection.
Agree with the original comment and Aella. I would add that should the university or others decide to take action, this matter would be important enough to stand the ground in favor of Bostrom, also non-anonymously. We can not “choose” our views, as some comments asked for that seems very PC. Also, we should not be held accountable for what we wrote 25+ years ago unless we repeat it.
However, “standing the ground” is precisely the opposite of what is needed, we need calm, well-intended, and measured discussions and I appreciated the blog post by David Thorstad in depth criticizing Bostrom. It is understandable when some (here, Twitter, or elsewhere) are angry, frustrated, or demand changes. Public statements like the one from CEA, however, are likely not helpful (that they don’t support the original mail is presumed without their message). Nor to be fair was the rather sloppy apology by Bostrom.
What is not obvious is the next step. I believe Bostrom that he is not interested in continuing this discussion and I do not see a value in forcing him to. Maybe a workshop/red-team white paper having a close and balanced look at this discussion where and if EA and the longtermism movement suffer from racism as alleged and if yes, what can be done about it?
But repeating it is exactly what his “apology” did! None of the people angry about this is thinking “Bostrom was racist 26 years ago, and that’s problematic even though he apologized and has changed”. The point is that his new letter exemplifies how he is racist and supports eugenicist ideas still.
I understand where you are coming from and wish your comment was not downvoted so much. We both want EA free of racism and I suggested measures to be taken to ensure this and more should be considered.
While FTX was a once-in-a-decade crime and may have showed systematic failure of EA, Bostrom’s apology is not a crime. Of course it does reflect badly on EA PR-wise.
So I see your points and will read his next publications with a yellow flag in my mind. I do, however, think he should not be “canceled”, he likely is not racist (I don’t know him personally), and I and we should focus in 2023 mostly on alignment work or other global priorities. Should you feel different, I fully support measures as detailed above.
As I say in my comment below, I think the question is “given all that we know, is CEA a truth-seeking org” and I still think yes. I don’t think the statement changed my mind much.
While I think it can make sense to model whole organisations as having traits like ‘truth-seeking’ or ‘having integrity’ or ‘transparent’, particularly when they are small and homogenous, it’s always worth remembering that organisations are made up of people, and those people can vary a lot along all those traits. For example, CEA’s character could change rapidly after hiring a lot, or if they lose one exceptionally conscientious person, etc.