I’d just like to clarify that my blogroll should not be taken as a list of “worthy figure[s] who [are] friend[s] of EA”! They’re just blogs I find often interesting and worth reading. No broader moral endorsement implied!
I have little patience with polite society, its inconsistencies in which views are and are not acceptable, and its games of tug-of-war with the Overton Window. My own standards are strict and idiosyncratic. If I held everyone to them, I’d live in a lonely world, one that would exclude many my own circles approve of. And if you wonder whether I approve of something, I’m always happy to chat.
I find it so maddeningly short-sighted to praise a white supremacist for being “respectful”. White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people! Expand your moral circle!
A recurring problem I find with replies to criticism of associating with white supremacist figures like Hanania is a complete failure to empathize with or understand (or perhaps to care?) why people are so bothered by white supremacy. Implied in white supremacy is the threat of violence against non-white people. Dehumanizing language is intimately tied to physical violence against the people being dehumanized.
White supremacist discourse is not merely part of some kind of entertaining parlour room conversation. It’s a bullet in a gun.
fyi, I weakly downvoted this because (i) you seem like you’re trying to pick a fight and I don’t think it’s productive; there are familiar social ratcheting effects that incentivize exaggerated rhetoric on race and gender online, and I don’t think we should encourage that. (There was nothing in my comment that invited this response.) (ii) I think you’re misrepresenting Trace. (iii) The “expand your moral circle” comment implies, falsely, that the only reason one could have for tolerating someone with bad views is that you don’t care about those harmed by their bad views.
I did not mean the reference to Trace to function as a conversation opener. (Quite the opposite!) I’ve now edited my original comment to clarify the relevant portion of the tweet. But if anyone wants to disagree with Trace, maybe start a new thread for that rather than replying to me. Thanks!
If white supremacists are by definition non-respectful to non-white people, and Hanania appears fairly respectful to non-white people, perhaps that allows us to conclude that Hanania does not, in fact, qualify for your definition of “white supremacist”?
The comment you’re replying to has somewhat sloppy language and reasoning. Unfortunately your comment managed to be even worse.
If white supremacists are by definition non-respectful to non-white people, and Hanania appears fairly respectful to non-white people, perhaps that allows us to conclude that Hanania does not, in fact, qualify for your definition of “white supremacist”?
This line of reasoning is implausible. If having a single nonwhite person over on a podcast without being rude is strong evidence against white supremacy, trusting nonwhite people enough to ally with you in a war is surely even better evidence.
The literal historical Nazis allied in a literal war with literal historical Imperial Japan (a country which is mostly nonwhite). While I don’t personally like to throw around phrases like “white supremacy” very often, I think reasonable people can agree that Nazis are white supremacists.
This line of reasoning is implausible. If having a single nonwhite person over on a podcast without being rude is strong evidence against white supremacy, trusting nonwhite people enough to ally with you in a war is surely even better evidence.
The literal historical Nazis allied in a literal war with literal historical Imperial Japan (a country which is mostly nonwhite). While I don’t personally like to throw around phrases like “white supremacy” very often, I think reasonable people can agree that Nazis are white supremacists.
I think you must have missed the “If” clause at the beginning of my comment, or the reference to ‘your definition’ in my sentence.
I’m not sure how much simpler I can make this, but I’ll give it a try.
Either disrespect towards non-white people is characteristic of white supremacy, or it is not. (Law of the excluded middle.)
If it is, then by conservation of expected evidence, respect towards non-white people is limited evidence against white supremacy.
If it is not, then Yarrow’s original claim “White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!” would appear to be false.
So, it sounds like maybe you’re trying to argue against Yarrow’s original claim that “White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!”, by giving the concrete example of Nazis respecting their Imperial Japanese allies? That’s the simplest way for me to read what you wrote.
This entire thread just demonstrates how confused and useless it is to argue “by definition”, or argue about term definitions. Set aside all word-definition disputes for a minute: The relevant question was whether Richard Hanania is a bad person to invite to conferences because he’ll be disrespectful to non-white people. Respectful interactions with a non-white podcast guest are perfectly good, if limited, evidence pertaining to that question. Can we agree on that, at least?
Espousing white supremacist views is in itself disrespectful to non-white people, regardless of whether the white supremacist sometimes has polite and cordial conversations on topics unrelated to race and racism with non-white people.
Well, your original statement was: “White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!” I suppose I must’ve misinterpreted you—I interpreted it to mean that you thought Hanania would be disrespectful to non-white conference attendees in a conference social setting.
When someone is pushing for our society to destroy, oppress, enslave, or exile millions of human beings, whether they mask their hatred with a veneer of politeness is not really the crux of the matter. It is extremely alienating and hostile to the people they hate and are seeking to severely harm to in any way endorse, promote, normalize, or empower them. That would include inviting them to a conference.
This entire thread just demonstrates how confused and useless it is to argue “by definition”, or argue about term definitions.
You keep inserting words into people’s mouths lmao. Nobody said “by definition” before you did. (Control-F for “by definition” if you don’t believe me).
I did not miss your “if.” I didn’t think it was necessary to go into the semantics dive because I thought the analogy would be relatively clear. Let me try again:
In general, when someone says X group is Y, a reasonable interpretation is that members of X group are more likely to be Y. If you are being Gricean, somebody saying A is a member of X implies that they think A is a fairly central member of X and thus are more likely to exhibit Y.
In colloquial English, “X is Y” almost never means “if X, then Y, for all values of X and Y”. Eg, if somebody said “men are taller than women” you should take this as a claim about statistical averages, not a claim that all men are taller than all women.
Similarly, if you see someone say something like “Nazis are disrespectful to nonwhites” you should interpret this as a claim that Nazis are on average significantly less respectful to nonwhites than other people would be to nonwhites. If you assume someone’s being Gricean when they said that, you might further assume that they believe that the specific Nazi they’re referring to exhibits similar behaviors to other Nazis on at least this dimension.
You should not interpret it as “every single Nazi is disrespectful to every single nonwhite person, in every case and in full generality.” I don’t think this is difficult. I don’t think you’d genuinely object to a claim “Nazis are disrespectful to nonwhites,” despite cases like allying with Imperial Japan, or adopting a swastika from Indian culture, or John Rabe. Even if the Nazis writ large made an entire exception for an entire ethnicity of people (eg suppose they were never disrespectful to the Japanese), I’d still consider the basic claim “Nazis are disrespectful to nonwhites” to be approximately correct, and would not go all out of my way to continuously correct every incidence of that remark with “Nazis are disrespectful to nonwhites who are not Japanese.”[1]
Analogies aside, let’s go back to Yarrow’s original claim:
I find it so maddeningly short-sighted to praise a white supremacist for being “respectful”. White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!
I think your attempt at a gotcha fails. For the same reason that it’s reasonable for someone to say men are taller than women without being immediately disproven as soon as you find a woman who’s taller than a man, or that Nazis are disrespectful of nonwhites despite allying with Japan.
Before writing angry/inflammatory replies, I recommend reading the actual text.
Some examples of Hanania’s endorsement of white supremacist views and organizations, from an article in the Huffington Post:
Richard Hanania, a visiting scholar at the University of Texas, used the pen name “Richard Hoste” in the early 2010s to write articles where he identified himself as a “race realist.” He expressed support for eugenics and the forced sterilization of “low IQ” people, who he argued were most often Black. He opposed “miscegenation” and “race-mixing.” And once, while arguing that Black people cannot govern themselves, he cited the neo-Nazi author of “The Turner Diaries,” the infamous novel that celebrates a future race war.
Hoste [a pen name for Hanania] wrote for antisemitic outlets like The Occidental Observer, a site that once argued Jews are trying to exterminate white Americans. He wrote for Counter-Currents, which advocates for creating a whites-only ethnostate; Taki’s Magazine, a far-right hub for paleoconservatives; and VDare, a racist anti-immigrant blog.
In 2010, Hoste was among the first writers to be recruited for AlternativeRight.com, a new webzine spearheaded and edited by Richard Spencer, the white supremacist leader who later organized the deadly 2017 neo-Nazi rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.
Hispanic people, he wrote in a 2010 article in Counter-Currents, “don’t have the requisite IQ to be a productive part of a first world nation.” He then made an argument for ethnic cleansing, writing that “the ultimate goal should be to get all the post-1965 non-White migrants from Latin America to leave.”
“If we want to defend our liberty and property, a low-IQ group of a different race sharing the same land is a permanent antagonist,” he wrote.
He lamented what he saw as the growing preponderance of “miscegenation,” or white and Black people dating each other. “For the white gene pool to be created millions had to die,” Hoste wrote once. “Race mixing is like destroying a unique species or piece of art. It’s shameful.”
Hoste’s racism was also evinced by the writers he chose to cite. In a 2010 article on AlternativeRight.com, Hoste described learning about a December 1997 speech by William Pierce called “The Lesson of Haiti.”
Hoste linked to a transcript of Pierce’s speech, without acknowledging who Pierce was: the leader and founder of the National Alliance, a violent neo-Nazi group, and the author of a novel called “The Turner Diaries,” a murderous race war fantasy that has inspired multiple white supremacist terrorists, including Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.
Hoste’s article on AlternativeRight.com was basically a recapitulation of Pierce’s speech about Haiti, recounting how a British explorer in the early 20th century traversed the country to answer the question, “Can the Negro rule himself?” The explorer had come to the racist conclusion that no, Black people cannot govern themselves ― a conclusion that delighted Pierce in 1997 and seemingly energized Hoste in 2010.
“The biggest enemies of the Black Man are not Klansmen or multinational corporations, but the liberals who have prevented an honest appraisal of his abilities and filled his head with myths about equality and national autarky,” Hoste wrote.
As far as I can tell, there’s no disagreement in this thread that Hanania held some repugnant views in the early 2010s. In terms of deciding whether to shun him in the present, it seems like the key issues are
(a) what the statue of limitations should be
and
(b) whether he said something repugnant recently enough that the statue of limitations would not apply
Perhaps you believe that Hanania’s early-2010s comments somehow reveal a “more authentic” version of his beliefs that he’s hiding from the public nowadays. That seems unlikely to me, given the more recent posts of his that I linked elsewhere in this thread. If he still held his early-2010s beliefs secretly, I don’t think he would argue against them so explicitly now.
Even the Hanania article you linked to entitled “Diversity Is Our Strength” contains as one of its core arguments the suggestion that Hispanic immigrants might be won over to his support for “war with civil rights law” by “comparing them favorably to genderfluid liberals and urban blacks”.
The next sentence links to one of his own tweets about how “selling immigrants on hating liberals would be the easiest thing in the world”, featuring a video of Muslims protesting in favour of LGBT book bans.
Perhaps you don’t find this style of politics repugnant, perhaps it even represents a marginal improvement on his prior beliefs, but I don’t think it’s one EA should be endorsing.
I’d just like to clarify that my blogroll should not be taken as a list of “worthy figure[s] who [are] friend[s] of EA”! They’re just blogs I find often interesting and worth reading. No broader moral endorsement implied!
fwiw, I found TracingWoodgrains’ thoughts here fairly compelling.
ETA, specifically:
I find it so maddeningly short-sighted to praise a white supremacist for being “respectful”. White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people! Expand your moral circle!
A recurring problem I find with replies to criticism of associating with white supremacist figures like Hanania is a complete failure to empathize with or understand (or perhaps to care?) why people are so bothered by white supremacy. Implied in white supremacy is the threat of violence against non-white people. Dehumanizing language is intimately tied to physical violence against the people being dehumanized.
White supremacist discourse is not merely part of some kind of entertaining parlour room conversation. It’s a bullet in a gun.
fyi, I weakly downvoted this because (i) you seem like you’re trying to pick a fight and I don’t think it’s productive; there are familiar social ratcheting effects that incentivize exaggerated rhetoric on race and gender online, and I don’t think we should encourage that. (There was nothing in my comment that invited this response.) (ii) I think you’re misrepresenting Trace. (iii) The “expand your moral circle” comment implies, falsely, that the only reason one could have for tolerating someone with bad views is that you don’t care about those harmed by their bad views.
I did not mean the reference to Trace to function as a conversation opener. (Quite the opposite!) I’ve now edited my original comment to clarify the relevant portion of the tweet. But if anyone wants to disagree with Trace, maybe start a new thread for that rather than replying to me. Thanks!
Now I wonder if you’re actually familiar with Hanania’s white supremacist views? (See here, for example.)
See also this comment.
If white supremacists are by definition non-respectful to non-white people, and Hanania appears fairly respectful to non-white people, perhaps that allows us to conclude that Hanania does not, in fact, qualify for your definition of “white supremacist”?
Alternatively, see Scott’s post The noncentral fallacy—the worst argument in the world?
The comment you’re replying to has somewhat sloppy language and reasoning. Unfortunately your comment managed to be even worse.
This line of reasoning is implausible. If having a single nonwhite person over on a podcast without being rude is strong evidence against white supremacy, trusting nonwhite people enough to ally with you in a war is surely even better evidence.
The literal historical Nazis allied in a literal war with literal historical Imperial Japan (a country which is mostly nonwhite). While I don’t personally like to throw around phrases like “white supremacy” very often, I think reasonable people can agree that Nazis are white supremacists.
I think you must have missed the “If” clause at the beginning of my comment, or the reference to ‘your definition’ in my sentence.
I’m not sure how much simpler I can make this, but I’ll give it a try.
Either disrespect towards non-white people is characteristic of white supremacy, or it is not. (Law of the excluded middle.)
If it is, then by conservation of expected evidence, respect towards non-white people is limited evidence against white supremacy.
If it is not, then Yarrow’s original claim “White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!” would appear to be false.
So, it sounds like maybe you’re trying to argue against Yarrow’s original claim that “White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!”, by giving the concrete example of Nazis respecting their Imperial Japanese allies? That’s the simplest way for me to read what you wrote.
This entire thread just demonstrates how confused and useless it is to argue “by definition”, or argue about term definitions. Set aside all word-definition disputes for a minute: The relevant question was whether Richard Hanania is a bad person to invite to conferences because he’ll be disrespectful to non-white people. Respectful interactions with a non-white podcast guest are perfectly good, if limited, evidence pertaining to that question. Can we agree on that, at least?
Espousing white supremacist views is in itself disrespectful to non-white people, regardless of whether the white supremacist sometimes has polite and cordial conversations on topics unrelated to race and racism with non-white people.
Well, your original statement was: “White supremacists are not respectful to non-white people!” I suppose I must’ve misinterpreted you—I interpreted it to mean that you thought Hanania would be disrespectful to non-white conference attendees in a conference social setting.
When someone is pushing for our society to destroy, oppress, enslave, or exile millions of human beings, whether they mask their hatred with a veneer of politeness is not really the crux of the matter. It is extremely alienating and hostile to the people they hate and are seeking to severely harm to in any way endorse, promote, normalize, or empower them. That would include inviting them to a conference.
You keep inserting words into people’s mouths lmao. Nobody said “by definition” before you did. (Control-F for “by definition” if you don’t believe me).
I did not miss your “if.” I didn’t think it was necessary to go into the semantics dive because I thought the analogy would be relatively clear. Let me try again:
In general, when someone says X group is Y, a reasonable interpretation is that members of X group are more likely to be Y. If you are being Gricean, somebody saying A is a member of X implies that they think A is a fairly central member of X and thus are more likely to exhibit Y.
In colloquial English, “X is Y” almost never means “if X, then Y, for all values of X and Y”. Eg, if somebody said “men are taller than women” you should take this as a claim about statistical averages, not a claim that all men are taller than all women.
Similarly, if you see someone say something like “Nazis are disrespectful to nonwhites” you should interpret this as a claim that Nazis are on average significantly less respectful to nonwhites than other people would be to nonwhites. If you assume someone’s being Gricean when they said that, you might further assume that they believe that the specific Nazi they’re referring to exhibits similar behaviors to other Nazis on at least this dimension.
You should not interpret it as “every single Nazi is disrespectful to every single nonwhite person, in every case and in full generality.” I don’t think this is difficult. I don’t think you’d genuinely object to a claim “Nazis are disrespectful to nonwhites,” despite cases like allying with Imperial Japan, or adopting a swastika from Indian culture, or John Rabe. Even if the Nazis writ large made an entire exception for an entire ethnicity of people (eg suppose they were never disrespectful to the Japanese), I’d still consider the basic claim “Nazis are disrespectful to nonwhites” to be approximately correct, and would not go all out of my way to continuously correct every incidence of that remark with “Nazis are disrespectful to nonwhites who are not Japanese.”[1]
Analogies aside, let’s go back to Yarrow’s original claim:
I think your attempt at a gotcha fails. For the same reason that it’s reasonable for someone to say men are taller than women without being immediately disproven as soon as you find a woman who’s taller than a man, or that Nazis are disrespectful of nonwhites despite allying with Japan.
Before writing angry/inflammatory replies, I recommend reading the actual text.
And I certainly won’t say the claim overall is false just because of a class [2]of exceptions! This is very much not how English works.
It’d be even more absurd to rate the claim as false due to a single exception
Some examples of Hanania’s endorsement of white supremacist views and organizations, from an article in the Huffington Post:
As far as I can tell, there’s no disagreement in this thread that Hanania held some repugnant views in the early 2010s. In terms of deciding whether to shun him in the present, it seems like the key issues are
(a) what the statue of limitations should be
and
(b) whether he said something repugnant recently enough that the statue of limitations would not apply
Perhaps you believe that Hanania’s early-2010s comments somehow reveal a “more authentic” version of his beliefs that he’s hiding from the public nowadays. That seems unlikely to me, given the more recent posts of his that I linked elsewhere in this thread. If he still held his early-2010s beliefs secretly, I don’t think he would argue against them so explicitly now.
Even the Hanania article you linked to entitled “Diversity Is Our Strength” contains as one of its core arguments the suggestion that Hispanic immigrants might be won over to his support for “war with civil rights law” by “comparing them favorably to genderfluid liberals and urban blacks”.
The next sentence links to one of his own tweets about how “selling immigrants on hating liberals would be the easiest thing in the world”, featuring a video of Muslims protesting in favour of LGBT book bans.
Perhaps you don’t find this style of politics repugnant, perhaps it even represents a marginal improvement on his prior beliefs, but I don’t think it’s one EA should be endorsing.
(Agreed that I wouldn’t want EA endorsing this style of politics)